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systemd Rolling Out "run0" As sudo Alternative

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  • #11
    Incoming 20-page comments section:

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    • #12
      Originally posted by Kjell View Post
      You can't opt-out of most features unless you compile it yourself
      That's true for absolutely everything. Either you compile it yourself or you need to use whatever your distributor ships. The point is, systemd is a common sense, unified replacement for a lot of things. And believing the xz vulnearability wouldn't have been possible when systemd wasn't a thing is just naive beyond believe. It was just used what is relatively commonly used. systemd was patched into openssh for notifications. If systemd wouldn't have existed, something else would have been used and ther would maybe have been some different exploit. The person(s) involved didn't even really try to write an actually bad exploit, the circumstances under which the exploit would be activated where extremely specific. If they actually tried, systemd would have been the most irrelevant component in the exploit.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by nvaert1986 View Post
        There's nothing or nobody forcing you to use a specific feature
        Wrong

        Majority of non obscure distros come with hard dependency on systemd

        The package itself is usually compiled with all modules even if you personally don't use them

        If you try packages from Arch Linux's repository in Artix Linux (fork with alternative init), you'll notice how deeply rooted systemd has become. Lots of packages are requiring various components like systemd-run / libsystemd

        Code:
        # Modules included out of the box with minimal "base" pacstrap in Arch Linux
        systemd-ac-power
        systemd-analyze
        systemd-ask-password
        systemd-cat
        systemd-cgls
        systemd-cgtop
        systemd-confext
        systemd-creds
        systemd-cryptenroll
        systemd-cryptsetup
        systemd-delta
        systemd-detect-virt
        systemd-dissect
        systemd-escape
        systemd-firstboot
        systemd-hwdb
        systemd-id128
        systemd-inhibit
        systemd-journald
        systemd-libs
        systemd-logind
        systemd-machine-id-setup
        systemd-machined
        systemd-mount
        systemd-notify
        systemd-nspawn
        systemd-path
        systemd-repart
        systemd-resolve
        systemd-run
        systemd-socket-activate
        systemd-stdio-bridge
        systemd-sysext
        systemd-sysusers
        systemd-tmpfiles
        systemd-tty-ask-password-agent
        systemd-udevd
        systemd-umount
        systemd-userwork
        systemd-vmspawn
        systemd-userdbd
        (soon) systemd-importctl
        (soon) systemd-ssh-generator
        (soon) systemd-vpick
        (user dependent) systemd-boot
        (user dependent) systemd-homed​
        Last edited by Kjell; 03 June 2024, 11:46 AM.

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        • #14
          [ basic criticism is, that systemd is binaries, while some predecessors are scripts utilizing more basic system tools, that are under strong review(?) ]

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          • #15
            The basic problem with packaging more and more into systemd is not that it happens, but that it happens in a way that is not interoperable.

            No-one would care if you could take a distro, and switch out systemd package tot sysV and be done. But since systemd is written in such a way that it is not possible, it becomes a problem.

            Same has happened previously with DE:s. You are supposed to just be able to install a DE package and run another DE on your setup. But in practice it's very problematic, and people just suggest to install a spin of the OS with the desired DE.

            These are issues of people not caring to be interoperable, since their project is all that matters.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Noitatsidem View Post

              can you explain a bit more about this bad moderation?
              Mastodon•social has a rather slow moderation, much spam accounts and typically rather bans more left-wing accounts in conflicts rather than the right-wingers with hate agenda. Also, it’s federating with Meta’s "Threads", allowing queer-hating ("queerphobic") accounts like "Libs of TikTok" to interact with the fediverse.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Kjell View Post
                systemd is vendor lock-in at this point

                You can't opt-out of most features unless you compile it yourself

                Packages are gradually starting to depend on functionality of systemd

                We no longer have the freedom of choice as they're pushing more and more features into a single point of failure.. XZ vulnerability depended on functionality of systemd (edit: for those missing the bigger point, such problems are a biproduct of feature creep. Also, let's not discuss how buggy core components like systemd-networkd & systemd-resolved are and how many attack vectors systemd introduces with the amount of modules they provide).

                How far will this go?
                systemd/GNU/Linux
                Ignoring the hyperbole, I would say given that systemd is a far more important part of the userland now than GNU, that yes systemd/GNU/Linux is appropriate.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by Kjell View Post

                  Wrong

                  Majority of non obscure distros come with hard dependency on systemd

                  The package itself is usually compiled with all modules even if you personally don't use them

                  If you try packages from Arch Linux's repository in Artix Linux (fork with alternative init), you'll notice how deeply rooted systemd is. E.g. packages requiring various components like systemd-run

                  Code:
                  systemd-ac-power
                  systemd-analyze
                  systemd-ask-password
                  systemd-cat
                  systemd-cgls
                  systemd-cgtop
                  systemd-confext
                  systemd-creds
                  systemd-cryptenroll
                  systemd-cryptsetup
                  systemd-delta
                  systemd-detect-virt
                  systemd-dissect
                  systemd-escape
                  systemd-firstboot
                  systemd-hwdb
                  systemd-id128
                  systemd-inhibit
                  systemd-machine-id-setup
                  systemd-mount
                  systemd-notify
                  systemd-nspawn
                  systemd-path
                  systemd-repart
                  systemd-resolve
                  systemd-run
                  systemd-socket-activate
                  systemd-stdio-bridge
                  systemd-sysext
                  systemd-sysusers
                  systemd-tmpfiles
                  systemd-tty-ask-password-agent
                  systemd-umount
                  systemd-vmspawn
                  (soon) systemd-importctl
                  (soon) systemd-ssh-generator
                  (soon) systemd-vpick
                  (distro dependent) systemd-boot
                  (distro dependent) systemd-homed​
                  ...and? That's exactly what the majority of users wants. Back when Debian first adopted systemd, they had a vote on it and about two years later they re-evaluated their decision. The result both times was that people want systemd. If you want to do something else than everyone around you, that's always work. If SysV Init was still a thing - and thank the gods that abomination is finally dying out - it would be a same thing. Just that you had many dependencies on many wildly different and incompatible approaches for everything. So quit whining and just use what everyone's using or do the work of building something on your own.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by back2未來 View Post
                    [ basic criticism is, that systemd is binaries, while some predecessors are scripts utilizing more basic system tools, that are under strong review(?) ]
                    Unmaintainable, pretty much not readable scripts. It's called progress. Live with it or do better. I doubt very much the likes of SysV Init are stronger reviewed than systemd that's used by everyone. Sure, those scripts are way older, but since they are phased out in any productive environment, you can't really tell them "under strong review" as nobody cares about them anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by holunder View Post
                      BTW, please come to the Fediverse/Mastodon, Phoronix!
                      And I don’t mean Mastodon•social because many instances are already blocking them for bad moderation.
                      all of these mastodon things seem kinda janky in reality, I've tried using them on numerous occasions and it's just not good. That's not to say the concept of a federated twitter alternative is bad, Mastodon is bad though

                      Comment

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