Linus Torvalds Comments On Bcachefs Prospects For Linux 6.6

[ElectricPrism]

While I dont disagree with the dev trying to become more polite (it's that case for all of them) they are kernel devs, they should NEVER put a good attitude over being right, When kernel devs are dancing around issues that could cause problems, they SHOULD be called out, same goes for when devs shut down discussion by disagreeing and not discussing it, just like it goes for when you post a massive patch to linux-mainline and not linux-next.

Bcachefs patch is kind amazing, since it has brought out bad points from both "sides of the table" despite being a table that should be round. both many people had shameful behavior and bickering.

I agree. Although we had no prior conversation, I want to ammed my comments earlier in this thread to include the concept of:

**The Tyranny of Civility**

The Tyranny of Civility is when "the right thing" is not done simply to reinforce beurocratic / collective / societal norms.

Although I did criticize some of Kent's sentiments and communication style for being devicive, I do think it's important to remember that in engineering the measuring stick merit preceeds niceities. I do think it is a balancing act though, and it can be foolish to be too jagged, crude or kurt -- but then on the other hand the "it depends" rule applies and being kurt can be the correct thing at the correct time.

Anyways I thought your analysis quoted above was pretty excellent, and again that everyone should focus on the work and "settle down". Salve those fefe's.

I consider not everything new is better, but relying on mailing lists for development is a mess. I consider Git should evoñve and integrate features available in software like GitLab, such as issue trackers and merge/pull requests. Then Git dependent software must adapt to this standarized storage of information and avoid vendor lock-in too (migrations are extremely time consuming, requiring custom software and lots of manual labor).

I would welcome the addition of Issue Tracking, and other Data into Git -- but perhaps under a new name like GitPlus or something, or as seperate modules.

Regarding the general criticisms of the Kernel mailing list still using Email in this thread, considering it's been defacto for so long I do think it has greater merit than switching to most centralized systems.

I think the discussion that it hints at bringing up is -- maybe it's time for the Tech Sector to reinvent Email -- keeping the core principles the same (decentralization, server to server, host to host, attachments, etc...), but perhaps mandate a Markup Language and fill in some "pot holes" that make it difficult to implement and host on a server. Email 2 if you will. Although please keep the W3C and BigTech AWAY from it -- we don't need more DRM like Google Chrome Manifest V3 -- the supposed stewards and guardians of the web are killing it.

Final thoughts -- I ammend the false-proverbial adage: 'all power corrupts absolutely' -- no.

Power Doesn't Corrupt, Power Reveals.

[F.Ultra]

It's insane. I don't understand why they don't use a bug tracker! I even don't understand why they don't use something similar to GitLab.

I understand Linus inbox may be massive too.

Not really sure how a bugtracker would change anything here, the number of tickets in bugtrackers and issues on github/gitlab that just dies the silent death is just as vast as the number of unanswered e-mails.

Honestly this all lies on Kent, if he asked Linus about -next and felt that he never got a reply then he should have asked again, that is how things work.

[arQon]

Some say he's rude and impatient. Others say he's even-tempered and responsive, as well as being a smart developer, until he's abused by another's poor behavior. But I don't read the LKML, so what do I know *shrug*

Both of these can be true, and it's not at all uncommon behavior in junior developers. The problem is that the junior dev feels justified in throwing a tantrum because "he started it", but the ego they're carrying around makes them prone to huge hostile overreactions to valid criticism and accurate comments on subpar work.
As a project lead or a more senior member of the team you can tolerate this sort of childish behavior for a while, but ultimately not only does it exhaust your patience pretty quickly; the constant hostility and random attacks on everyone else in the team the newbie uses to protect themself from the embarrassment of having the mistakes they've made pointed out to them is at best a major disruption to everyone else's ability to get work done.

That's the problem Linus is highlighting, and Kent is - unquestionably - the asshole here. Since every previous attempt to get him to act like an adult has failed, and there have clearly been a *lot* of those already, Linus is making it clear that unless Kent's behavior improves he *will* use the nuclear option. No individual is bigger than the project itself, but Kent still doesn't get that. Until that changes (or, more accurately, until Kent at least starts acting like he believes it for long enough) this isn't getting merged, regardless of any other factors.

One way or another it'll blow over eventually, but it's absolutely on Kent to get himself sorted out; not on a hundred other people to keep accommodating him and his issues.

[Rallos Zek]

From Linus Torvalds <>
Date Thu, 7 Sep 2023 13:51:50 -0700
Subject Re: [GIT PULL] bcachefs


On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 13:37, Kent Overstreet <> wrote:
>
> Linus, I specifically asked you about linux-next in the offlist pre-pull
> request thread back in May. It would have been nice if I could've gotten
> an answer back then; instead, I'm only getting a definitive answer on
> that now.

I may not have answered because it was so *obvious*.

Was there really any question about it?

Anyway, the fact that the code doesn't even build for me is kind of a
show-stopper regardless. It's the kind of things linux-next is
supposed to notice early, so that we aren't in the situation where the
code has not even been build-tested properly.

The fact that the kernel is developed using a mailing list where there's no real responsibility or duties shows.

Yep, Linus often ignores private emails and oh, boy, I've seen hundreds of unreplied emails on LKML with people having quite serious issues.

Yet, most kernel developers oppose to using any formal bug tracker. It just sucks for a project of this magnitude and importance. At least I did my best to save the kernel bugzilla.

You assume a big fancy bug tracker would be better than a mailing list for Linux, but a fancy bug tracker and web page would not scale for Linux. Go look at a number of bug trackers in the wild for active projects smaller than the kerne;, one will find issues and bug reports on them dating back several years. Linux is huge and as such as a ton of reported bugs but compared to a lot of projects its bugs as a percentage of code is small in the grand scheme of things.

[timofonic]

Both of these can be true, and it's not at all uncommon behavior in junior developers. The problem is that the junior dev feels justified in throwing a tantrum because "he started it", but the ego they're carrying around makes them prone to huge hostile overreactions to valid criticism and accurate comments on subpar work.
As a project lead or a more senior member of the team you can tolerate this sort of childish behavior for a while, but ultimately not only does it exhaust your patience pretty quickly; the constant hostility and random attacks on everyone else in the team the the newbie uses to protect themself from the embarrassment of having the mistakes they've made pointed out to them is at best a major disruption to everyone else's ability to get work done.

That's the problem Linus is highlighting, and Kent is - unquestionably - the asshole here. Since every previous attempt to get him to act like an adult has failed, and there have clearly been a *lot* of those already, Linus is making it clear that unless Kent's behavior improves he *will* use the nuclear option. No individual is bigger than the project itself, but Kent still doesn't get that. Until that changes (or, more accurately, until Kent at least starts acting like he believes it for long enough) this isn't getting merged, regardless of any other factors.

One way or another it'll blow over eventually, but it's absolutely on Kent to get himself sorted out; not on a hundred other people to keep accommodating him and his issues.

There's tons of info about him over Internet, not going to annoy him about it but somebody warn him about it please.

How old may be Kent Overstreet if he was an undergraduate in 2006 at The University of Alaska Fairbanks?

https://www.cs.uaf.edu/2006/mcm/

https://www.couchsurfing.com/people/kent.overstreet

It seems he's 40 years old, more or less. Is him considered a junior developer? He did Bcache at 2010, worked at Google and Datera. Then he worked at Bcachefs since 2015, no other employeer.

[timofonic]

Breaking news! It seems Kent Overstreet abandoned all efforts, maybe even Bcachefs project too.

Or is he relaxing from this mess and preparing for 6.7? Or submitting it to linux-next?

Any idea?

Honestly, though, this process is getting entirely kafkaesque.

I've been spending the past month or two working laying the groundwork for putting together a team to work on this, because god knows we need fresh blood in filesystem land - but that's on hold. Getting blindsided by another three month delay hurts, but that's not even the main thing.

The biggest thing has just been the non stop hostility and accusations - everything from "fracturing the community" too "ignoring all the rules"
and my favorite, "is this the hill Kent wants to die on?" - when I'm just trying to get work done.

I don't generally think of myself as being particularly difficult to work with, I get along fine with most of the filesystem developers I interact with - regularly sharing ideas back and forth with the XFS people - but these review discussions have been entirely dominated by the most divisive people in our community, and I'm being told it's entirely on me to work with the guy whos one constant in the past 15 years has been to try and block everything I submit?

I'm just trying to get work done here. I'm not trying to ignore the rules. I'm trying to work with people who are willing to have reasonable
discussions.

-------------------

When I was a teenager, I wanted nothing more than to be a Linux kernel programmer. I thought it utterly amazing that this huge group of people
from around the world were working together over the internet, and that anyone could take part if they had the chops.

That was my escape from a shitty family situation and the assholes in my life.

But my life is different now; I have new and better people in my life, and I have to be thinking about them, and if merging bcachefs means I have to spend a lot more time in interactions like this then it's going to make me a shitty person to be around; and I don't want to do that to myself and I definitely don't want to do that to the people I care about.

I'm going to go offline for awhile and think about what I want to do next.

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/[email protected]/

[fitzie]

Breaking news! It seems Kent Overstreet abandoned all efforts, maybe even Bcachefs project too.

this was so predictable. everyone is out to get him, every decision that doesn't go his way is an unrecoverable loss. he's so blind to reality at this moment. I've been in his shoes before so I know what it must feel like for him. He really needs to embrace the process because it's not trying to make bcachefs a worse product, but him a better team player. The linux kernel isn't an amalgamation of different subprojects, it's one kernel, one huge community, and he needs to fit in.

[chris200x9]

This might be a stupid question but why can't Kent just submit it to linux-next for a cycle or two? I know that'd be a bummer but to keep pushing and pushing for it to be mainlined for years without even trying (hard) to get it ito linux-next seems kind of dumb. I mean, IIRC the first merge attempt was in 2018.

[ElectricPrism]

Interesting. That seemed fairly mature, getting a breath of fresh air and regaining his bearings seems wise.

If there is a personality conflict though, I do think it's in everybody's best interest, to be able to have more options on being selective with who you collaborate with -- if at all possible.

In some situations the social math can be plain wrong -- and there's no joy in it.

Once the dust settles I hope the path forward is plain to see and I hope he arrives at options he is happy with so he can be joyful by proximity.

[oiaohm]

Do you mean this is a RTFM issue? He has contributed large sets of code in the past, it seems is another cause and that means the situation for Bcachefs merge looks quite bad.

Maybe it's just that he has too much ego in a pathological level.

It is clear the linux manual for maintainers and submitting has not been followed in the bcachefs case. And people not RTFM and screwing up is human normal.