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Casefolding For Bcachefs File-System Posted

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  • #51
    Originally posted by renkin View Post

    I am not a fan of casefolding being implemented for filesystems in general. It is already a nightmare on Windows. Why bring it over to linux if we don't have to? IMO, (game) developers should always be using case-sensitive names.
    I view it on the contrary, I see no good reason for a filesystem to be case sensitive anymore aside from backwards compatibility

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Archprogrammer View Post
      But casefolding per directory enables you to limit it to where it's actually beneficial - you wouldn't set the casefolding flag anywhere else.
      A good reason not to do it is because it introduces ambiguity to the system. But if it can be off by default and only enabled for single directories like Archprogrammer says, then it can be worthwhile just to appease some Windows programs.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

        Given that rollbacks are an exeptional case, I think f2fs is by far the best fs for the steam deck usecase. Using less power/being more efficient is generally a bigger priority.

        I have a hunch that there are 2 main reasons why steam deck didn't go with f2fs
        • Stability/maturity
        • f2fs has issues whereby adding/removing functionality (i.e. kernel args) can force you to reformat filesystem.
        Hmmm well bcachefs is also new, and Valve controls the kernel and kernel args themselves.

        Still, this reasoning is plausible. I also think f2fs is relatively unknown on Desktop linux, as its mostly used in Android and enterprise(?). Its also user unfriendly when, say, putting the sd card into another device, as you said.
        ​​​​​

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
          I view it on the contrary, I see no good reason for a filesystem to be case sensitive anymore aside from backwards compatibility
          Some workflows it makes sense to be case sensitive/not case folded.

          Last year, a (controversial) feature was added to the Linux kernel to support optimized case-insensitive file name lookups in the Ext4 filesystem.

          Non-English characters

          Currently, only UTF-8 encoding is supported, and I am not aware of plans to expand it to more encodings. While different encodings make a lot of sense for Eastern languages speakers for encoding compression reasons, I'm not aware of anyone currently working on it for Linux.

          With that said, the Linux implementation performs the Canonical Decomposition normalization process before comparing strings. That means that canonically equivalent characters can be correctly searched using a different normalized name. For instance, in some languages like German, the upper-case version of the letter ß (Eszett), is SS (or U+1E9E ẞ LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S). Thus, it makes sense for a German speaker to look for a file named "floß" (raft, in English), using the string "FLOSS":
          $ touch CI_dir/floß
          $ CI_dir/FLOSS

          There are also multiple ways to combine accented characters. Our method ensures, for instance that multiple encodings of the word café (coffee, in portuguese) can be interchangeable on a casefolded lookup.

          Let's see something cool. For this to work, you might want to copy-paste the command below, instead of typing it. Let's create some files:
          $ touch CI_dir/café CI_dir/café CS_dir/café CS_dir/café

          How many files where created? Can you explain it?
          Quackdoc; when you start having to deal in multi country source files some cases you want a incoming folder where no alteration is performed at all. Like it or not, case folding can end in the problem where it effective due to the way the language encode words end up with a overlap with a different meaning word.

          This is the problem there are use cases for both case folded and not case folded sections. I would understand a default case folded on but the non case folded folders need to be option for the problem cases where case folding does not work. There is reasons why windows is not available in for particular countries native Languages resulting in those countries using more Linux yes Windows case insensitivity is linked.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            Some workflows it makes sense to be case sensitive/not case folded.

            Last year, a (controversial) feature was added to the Linux kernel to support optimized case-insensitive file name lookups in the Ext4 filesystem.



            Quackdoc; when you start having to deal in multi country source files some cases you want a incoming folder where no alteration is performed at all. Like it or not, case folding can end in the problem where it effective due to the way the language encode words end up with a overlap with a different meaning word.

            This is the problem there are use cases for both case folded and not case folded sections. I would understand a default case folded on but the non case folded folders need to be option for the problem cases where case folding does not work. There is reasons why windows is not available in for particular countries native Languages resulting in those countries using more Linux yes Windows case insensitivity is linked.
            this seems like an implementation error, not an error with case sensitivity itself

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            • #56
              Speaking of case-folding problem due to language outside English, I remember Turkey invented i/İ and ı/I pair, breaking the usual i/I convention. They bring a far more annoying issue than ß (Eszett) as they make internationally valid "canonical" case-insensitive output impossible.

              If someone can travel back in time, they should go back to Turkey 1928 and plead them to just use other more common diacritics and don't be that creative.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
                this seems like an implementation error, not an error with case sensitivity itself
                Yes that is one possible problem is implementation error and how can user work around it effectively if you don't provide means to turn off case fold. Case sensitivity you don't have to worry about things as much. Case folding/insenstivity is where the problem starts.

                Case sensitive equals you don't have to deal with the language issue as you put the problem on the human operator.

                Originally posted by billyswong View Post
                Speaking of case-folding problem due to language outside English, I remember Turkey invented i/İ and ı/I pair, breaking the usual i/I convention. They bring a far more annoying issue than ß (Eszett) as they make internationally valid "canonical" case-insensitive output impossible.

                If someone can travel back in time, they should go back to Turkey 1928 and plead them to just use other more common diacritics and don't be that creative.
                Thank you for one of the good examples of hell. But not the only example.

                Yes there are set of languages that the capital of one letter you change the meaning of the complete word they are also the ones where you look at the keyboard at times and go what the hell with every key having 2 to 3 letters on them.

                Of course there is the mirror problem that with unicode that you can write what appears to the same word on screen over 5 times yet not each word contains totally unique Unicode numbers.

                When dealing with documents and items from multi countries having case sensitive areas allows dealing with issues. When you get into this problem deep enough you start thinking we need to be able to declare this folder is this language/set of languages case fold based on that and this folder has no case folding random what ever zone. Of course most users would be able to install with everything be their language set and everything be good.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by renkin View Post

                  I am not a fan of casefolding being implemented for filesystems in general. It is already a nightmare on Windows. Why bring it over to linux if we don't have to? IMO, (game) developers should always be using case-sensitive names.
                  Case sensitivity tends to mess things up and in my 30+ years of using different OSes I've not found a single case where it was needed.

                  I've not seen any nightmare on Windows and there's not a single news piece, blog post or opinion on the Internet sharing your concerns.

                  Given that over 3 billion people have used Windows since 1992 (the first truly graphical Windows release), and you're the only one talking about "nightmare" I have reasons to believe you see an issue where there's none.

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by renkin View Post
                    I am not a fan of casefolding being implemented for filesystems in general. It is already a nightmare on Windows. Why bring it over to linux if we don't have to? IMO, (game) developers should always be using case-sensitive names.
                    There are no case-sensitive names if the underlying filesystem is case-insensitive. Duh! The real question is why would anyone in the first place use anything else except lower-case filenames, both on disk and in code.

                    Case-insensitivity is mostly a convenience feature for end users, nothing else, programmers should never resort to it when designing a system (= application). Mixed-case filenames actually lead to bugs by design as nobody can all the time double-check for the correct casing when referencing a file in code.
                    Last edited by curfew; 15 August 2023, 05:34 AM.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by avis View Post
                      Given that over 3 billion people have used Windows since 1992 (the first truly graphical Windows release), and you're the only one talking about "nightmare" I have reasons to believe you see an issue where there's none.


                      About time you get off you Windows bent. There is a serous reason why Linux holds 8 percent market share in india and growing its called language support.

                      Next windows support case sensitive directories.
                      Learn how case sensitive file names are handled between Windows and Linux file systems, how to adjust these settings by directory with WSL, and how to troubleshoot issues.


                      Yes you can turn off case folding under windows per directory. Some languages choices on install turn it off automatically on the user profile directories causing some software issues.

                      Basically just because you have not seen it avis does not mean the feature is not required. Worst you missed that it a feature of Windows so since Windows NT and NTFS people have been using windows at times with case folding disabled. Yes case folding disabled is not a option for fat based OS Microsoft added the feature when they made NT to support more languages.

                      So 3 billion people now here a question smart fool avis need to answer what percentage of that had their profiles with case sensitive enabled Microsoft does have that number based roughly on activation and they did publish the stat a one point to those in the partner program.

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