Wine is awesome, that's certain!
Unfortunately that feature doesn't fix everything... eg: issues around games developed on windows and released with linux native versions that haven't been thoroughly tested and call the wrong namecase for a resource file... and the previously mentioned issue around mods (mods based only on resource files and not on binary extensions to a game can usually be deployed on linux versions of a game same as on windows butthen case differences break the mod until they are hunted down and renamed...)
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Linux NTFS Driver Preparing "nocase" Case-Insensitive Mount Option
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Originally posted by andrebrait View Post
Well, that was exactly what I had in mind. No idea why it would break, but if one thing computers told me is that many things aren't as straightforward as they seem.
For example, a tool that expects to be able to write files whose names use different sets of characters that may coincidentally be the same but with a case changed will fail royally on a case-insensitive FS (or an FS that *can* be case-sensitive but is mounted as case-insensitive)
Fun fact - Wine Staging can actually use ext4 case insensitive feature. Because of Windows case insensitive nature, Wine had to take care of that internally. If you have ext4 partition with enabled case insensitive option then Wine will use that instead of internal method. That could bring better performance and compatibility but as far I know there are no benchmarks that would prove that so it's unknown how much it improved by that feature.Last edited by dragon321; 26 September 2022, 04:28 PM.
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Linux Mint Cinnamon does not have that problem... there is a "direct delete" option (can be shown or hidden in Nemo settings) and IIRC the message "too big for moving to the trash" offers the option of a direct delete, as anyone with a half-brain would expect, LOL
Those tiny details make me love Mint, but also they don't despair me about Linux usability because it can improve over time from user feedback to the devs (wereas Microsoft is as boneheaded as they come and windows is closed source so it's their way or the highway)... you could make a feature request or even file a bug report for a usability issue
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Originally posted by marlock View Postthat's not a better UX than using an app store and an app store is not a better UX than a linux repo gui "store" with 1-click install of 100% free stuff
Originally posted by marlock View Postthat being said I know what you mean... if an app is not on the repo it can be a nuissance to install it manually on linux compared to the ubiquity of setup.exes from the app devs themselves... but setup.exe is also one of the reasons I was glad to see windows dead and buried at my home, with the growth of pesky bundled browser searchbars (adware and spyware) and such horrible nonsense... and with them I also finally stopped having to deal with security suites, which were horrible UX & resource hogs of the worst kind
Originally posted by marlock View PostI could also bring up the issue of hardware drivers windows still requires a user to browse manufacturer websites for (all horrible websites), and that end up installing end-user apps instead of just the driver... each with their crazy UI design that only works for some models of their own brand (not even the same UI for all models of the same brand!!!) while for an astonishing amount of hardware we have instantaneous detection out-of-the-box... it's really rewarding to see windows users use a printer on linux for the first time now... it wasn't pretty until recently if you got an incompatible one, but now there are proper generic protocols for wired and wireless printing that linux handles like a champ and windows is just shameful at this! the surprise in their face when the printer (and scanner) are automatically detected without user intervention, in mere seconds, and can simply be used... is priceless!
Originally posted by marlock View PostAll this to say that the Linux Desktop experience is far from unnacceptable for common non techie users. It can be far superior to windows in many aspects already. It's already more a matter of inertia than real lack of quality and it keeps getting better because linux devs do care about it in one way or another (while windows seems to be getting worse and worse...)
Of course that is only one example but that small things that are stick. And its feels like Gnome is remove everything from there applications and KDE dont know what checkboxes and sliders add to the options.
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. You can still go to the website of program X or Y and get the installer from them
that being said I know what you mean... if an app is not on the tepo it can be a nuissance to install it manually on linux compared to the ubiquity of setup.exes from the app devs themselves... but setup.exe is also one of the reasons I was glad to see windows dead and buried at my home, with the growth of pesky bundled browser searchbars (adware and spyware) and such horrible nonsense... and with them I also finally stopped having to deal with security suites, which were horrible UX & resource hogs of the worst kind
I could also bring up the issue of hardware drivers windows still requires a user to browse manufacturer websites for (all horrible websites), and that end up installing end-user apps instead of just the driver... each with their crazy UI design that only works for some models of their own brand (not even the same UI for all models of the same brand!!!) while for an astonishing amount of hardware we have instantaneous detection out-of-the-box... it's really rewarding to see windows users use a printer on linux for the first time now... it wasn't pretty until recently if you got an incompatible one, but now there are proper generic protocols for wired and wireless printing that linux handles like a champ and windows is just shameful at this! the surprise in their face when the printer (and scanner) are automatically detected without user intervention, in mere seconds, and can simply be used... is priceless!
All this to say that the Linux Desktop experience is far from unnacceptable for common non techie users. It can be far superior to windows in many aspects already. It's already more a matter of inertia than real lack of quality and it keeps getting better because linux devs do care about it in one way or another (while windows seems to be getting worse and worse...)
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Originally posted by marlock View Postso Linux pedantry is there in the Deck yet people "just play games" on it...
Originally posted by marlock View PostI'd also argue that the years of windows on the desktop are past it... it's a horrible experience for far too many of its users, more so than linux, and its been so for a while regardless of case sensitiveness
Or lets look at Mobile. There is a major Store on both major platforms. And you can easy upload your application to them that just works on all targeted devices. you don't have to build it specially for the android version from google, samsung, motorola, sony, LG, etc. If you try to bring your application or a upgrade to one of the major Linux Distributions you get probably rejected if you are not Firefox or Chrome.
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Originally posted by Nille View PostBut the stuff that makes a GNU/Linux is the traditional way are more or less hidden.
I agree it's a usability issue if Foo.txt is not the same as foo.txt, but it's one that is also pretty minor for an end user and more relevant for software development and platform compatibility.
And guess what... The fact that the occasional obnoxiousness of the CLI and root OS conventions can be abstracted away from the end user is the whole point of the GUI and of making an OS user-friendly. Computers are inherently pedantic and we program layer upon layer to make them more smooth and natural to use for our practical purposes... and this works, so Linux pedantry is there in the Deck yet people "just play games" on it... and this also proves that the starting point is obnoxious but the big kahunas in linux development are aiming in the right direction and working on those issues so no, it's not impossible to have the year of linux on the desktop too.
IMHO if Linux Mint was a bigger distro we would have already done had ourses, but getting something good AND big out there for A LOT people is part of the challenge (and something Valve just did wonders to advance our chances of achieving, regardless of the distro)
I'd also argue that the years of windows on the desktop are past it... it's a horrible experience for far too many of its users, more so than linux, and its been so for a while regardless of case sensitiveness
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Originally posted by microchip8 View PostThis is only possible in *case INSENSIITIVY* file systems.
Originally posted by marlock View PostWe are having the year of the Linux Handheld Gaming Console
But the stuff that makes a GNU/Linux is the traditional way are more or less hidden.Last edited by Nille; 24 September 2022, 04:11 PM.
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stormcrow
We are having the year of the Linux Handheld Gaming Console, and the Linux Kernel devs did embrace case insensitiveness unlike the user you're arguing against. You're living up to your nickname with the doom and gloom
middy
Nobody will be forced to fix anything. Windows apps are not developed on a Linux development environment so the bug will ship to users undetected...
...and then it will manifest because linux took a more strict approach towards case sensitivity.
The devs might refuse to fix it because they only care about windows, and linux users will need to hunt and rename files manually (risking new issues during game updates)... or they might not even exist to take action, or the source code and tooling might be lost to time and even the devs can't fix and update it.
Games are mostly closed source, so only the original devs can fix them, but they don't work like other apps because many are released and never see an update again afterwards yet each game is unique and irreplaceable despite that. GoG ("Good Old Games") was born from a pile of abandonware games because there isa special interest in keeping that kind of app alive and functional after they are orphaned.
Now here is my humble perspective on the issue:
How many linux apps and users actually make use of "foo.txt" and "Foo.txt" in the same folder on purpose and need them to be separate different files, not copies or symlinks for compatibility purposes?
I suspect the answer is close to zero...
So I'm willing to bet we could get away with enabling the case insensitiveness filesystem compatibility feature on the root partition and things would still "just work", or very minimal work would be necessary to achieve that.
If the feature helps remove a potential compatibility issue, while helping the computer behave closer to our natural thought processes and languages, without tangible loss of functionality... then why not work on it?
(which incidentally the best minds in linux development already decided to do after probably much deeper consideration then ours...)
edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying the feature is going to be used on the main linux partition, at least not now and not in the near future. I'm just arguing that the one thing case sensitiveness can provide (foo.txt and Foo.txt coexistance) is not useful in practice and the drawbacks (calling foo.txt failing to reach Foo.txt) is quite tangible.Last edited by marlock; 24 September 2022, 02:01 PM.
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Originally posted by middy View Postwhen they sit there wondering why they have two folders called foo and fOo when all they want is "FOO" it does force them when they go to "fix it." they realize, foo and fOo are treated differently and start paying attention to their formatting because they don't want "duplicates." they start formatting things one way for they don't have to run into this "issues."
i understand your "average user" argument but from an overall formatting etiquette, forcing case sensitivity does help overtime keep files named sanely or at least follow a common formatting pattern overtime. allowing insensitivity allows people to do a lot of bizarre formatting. go back to my modding example, you can have ten variations of "NVDLC04" while with linux users you can easily bet most will probably just have it written as "nvdlc04" simply because its easier and don't want to worry about variations.
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