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  • CochainComplex
    replied
    btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_jbLSf8mEQ good analysis of large companies and "opensource"

    Leave a comment:


  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Direct X with the way Direct X for Linux is being done is important.
    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/direc...x-heart-linux/

    Perfect example of Extend from Microsoft playbook. Microsoft says here is Direct X for Linux but it only works if you are using WSL or equal where Linux is running on top of Windows.
    Sublime Example - thx for sharing. I read the Phoronix article about it but haven't seen this blog post.
    Just by reading you can grasp how much effort has been done to exlude Linux out of DirectX.
    I would like to hear your opinion on it jacob - maybe I can't see the joy of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    That's my point exactly. MS is not an actual open-source company and may never be, but like most technology companies, they now contribute to open source to varying degrees in ways that suits them. This is a good thing. If Microsoft thinks that using and contributing to FOSS is more advantageous than being hostile, all the better for Microsoft and for FOSS alike.
    Yes the fact Microsoft is not a open source company has to be taken into account. Contributing to FOSS by a company because it is more advantageous this does not mean its not a hostile act. You have the big bad presume that contributing cannot be a hostile act.

    Remember the tripple E
    Embrace, Extended and Extinguish.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrac...and_extinguish
    Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
    Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
    Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
    This is straight from the Microsoft playbook jacob. Yes I love Linux is Phase 1 of the EEE. Yes Microsoft loves calling Extinguish Innovate. Remember Extend stage of tripple E can be contribute features that only work on Windows and having the simple common standard flawed on windows when you don't use the Extends. Extend stage you need to be watching what Microsoft is contributing.

    Is Microsoft with rust pushing cross platform nature of rust forwards the answer is no. Is Microsoft extending rust with more and more Windows only things answer is yes.

    There are a lot of cases where Microsoft is truly doing Extend by submitting to open source projects and in Extend in ways that conformed to the EEE process.

    Originally posted by oiaohm
    Reality here jacob Microsoft wants to keep Visual Studio the full product bound to windows to force more Windows sales. Yes Visual Studio Code fits into this so that people cannot keep on asking for Visual Studio the main program to be ported.
    Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
    You could easily replace Visual Studio Code by DirectX, MS Office.. and this sentences would be still true.
    Direct X with the way Direct X for Linux is being done is important.
    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/direc...x-heart-linux/

    Perfect example of Extend from Microsoft playbook. Microsoft says here is Direct X for Linux but it only works if you are using WSL or equal where Linux is running on top of Windows.

    Yes Visual studio code by design has interoperability problems with Visual Studio projects. So here they made their own broken competitor.

    Reality here Microsoft has done different presentations over years with different ways of wording EEE some of them quite recent as in the last 12 months. The culture of EEE is not dead inside Microsoft. Microsoft has not completely turned over a new leaf yet.

    Accepting code from Microsoft and trusting Microsoft are two different things. Reality here Microsoft still does a lot things that don't read trustworthy. Please remember Microsoft is a very big company they had the culture of EEE for very long time. Some people inside Microsoft now may be very open source friendly but its foolishness to think they all are. Large Company culture does not change quickly and is more a 30-40 year process.

    Like it or not people like me are hard on Microsoft because they have not really stopped doing actions

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win
    This is not really a quote from Mahatma Gandhi

    Gandhi once observed that every movement goes through four stages: First they ignore you; then they abuse you; then they crack down on you and then you win.
    This first step away from Gandhi book. Progressive small errors over time can completely change something. Do note the two bits in the middle have changed. Both of the middle of Gandhi book is they fight you just fight you in different ways. Extend of triple EEE has more than 1 way to-do it.

    Also note the directx heart linux being the I love Linux heart and it being used for technology that is not universally usable on Linux.

    jacob like or not Microsoft for the complete time they have been like we love Linux they have been doing EEE extend actions and not even very hidden either. Please note I am not saying we should not work with Microsoft at all. Just Microsoft by action cannot be 100 percent trusted to-do the right thing. There will be times Microsoft will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing the right thing by upstreams refusing to take different patches from Microsoft.

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  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by BesiegedAce View Post

    Looking at the replies in this thread, I feel like your optimism was misplaced. Maybe one day they'll stop crying wolf over every single thing.
    I will stop crying once MS opens DirectX for Linux or at least I can buy MS Office for Linux.

    Leave a comment:


  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    The raison d'etre of a car producer is to produce cars, it's not (and shouldn't be) to act as a self-appointed environmental protection agency. Similarly the goal of a software producer is to sell software. When they can achieve that by making a certain portion of that software open source, all the better, just like it's better if cars can be made to cause less pollution.
    By saying "MS Loves Linux" it is doing this.

    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    You profit from MS's contributions if you run Linux on a Hyper-V platform, including on Azure.
    You profit if you are a software developer who uses Visual Studio Code.
    You profit if you host any code on Github, or every time you use any software whose development is hosted on Github.
    You profit if you develop in Rust, Haskell or C#, or if you use any software written in those languages. (this includes GNOME and KDE who depend on librsvg, which is now mostly rewritten in Rust).
    You profit if you use Powershell, (although to be fair I personally haven't seen anyone using it on Linux yet)
    Etc.
    90% of this are payed services. Or they have been bought by ms and monetarized.
    e.g. What was MS contribution to git when Linus came up with the idea?
    Btw at work we host our own Git lab instance...

    Powershell ...on Linux? really?

    Huawei is also financing Rust. Should we appreciate the "business practices" of the communist party of China?

    To be honest this sounds like MS Marketing stuff. I don't get how someone Living the Linux ecosystem is really profiting of it.

    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    Yes, Microsoft's contributions usually don't directly affect home users or players of AAA games. That doesn't mean they aren't important or appreciated: as I repeated many times, I much prefer to see companies (including Microsoft) to generate massive income from open source than from proprietary software.

    And yes, Microsoft also simultaneously does many other things that hamper open source, just like Google, RedHat, Valve etc.
    To be honest they should do - considering how harming they had been in the past.

    You have thrownin Google - I don't like them ether. But OS and Browser their core Softwareproducts are full FOSS and can be forked if you don't like e.g. the datacollecting...name me one MS product.

    In the real world you only profit of MS FOSS contributions if you are on a MS platform otherwise it is a blow smoke strategy.
    Last edited by CochainComplex; 08 November 2021, 05:40 AM.

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  • CochainComplex
    replied

    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    You say you contribute some code or bug reports - good on you, it's more than what most people do. However I doubt that you contribute as much as the army of FOSS developers employed by Microsoft. (*)

    You donate money - also good on you. Microsoft is a paid up member of the Linux Foundation among many other things (they also contributed money to OpenSSH at least once, they are a paid up member of Rust Foundation etc etc), how do you compare? (*)

    (*) to be clear: I don't imagine or expect that you or any other individual would have financial or code contributions remotely comparable to those of a megacorp like Microsoft. But by the very same token, it's very disingenuous to claim that you contribute some money to open source, yet dismiss an org with contributions that are many orders of magnitude larger than yours as illegitimate or unworthy of recognition. That's the point I was making.
    Ok, since when was it ever practical to compare one person with a corporate entity aka an army of people?
    Lets do some statistics math and normalize it.

    2020 MS made 61 Billions$ Profit
    2019 avg US Salary around 71k$

    Linux Foundation Gold Membership 500k$ p.a.
    So MS donated 0,000819672% of their Income to the Linux Foundation.
    An equal of ~0.60$ p.a. for the average US Citizen.

    If I use the same calculation on my income, I have donated at least a few hundred times more. Every Premium Member here is donating more to the FOSS ecosystem....

    Besides FOSS was established to get rid of the "here swallow and pay" culture of Software ecosystems. It was the power a few voluntary and it is still the spirit.

    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    You buy Steam games - I'm not sure how buying proprietary software running on a DRM-laden platform counts as a FOSS contribution.
    Quid pro quo. Valves is the only larger cooperation helping to push Linux Gaming. Ubisoft, EA etc are not even releasing one of their DRM spreader for Linux. ..And I'm not aware of Indigames in the store of EA, Ubi ...?

    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    You "spread the word" - Here I watch you spreading the word by acting as a self-appointed judge of who is worthy to participate in the FOSS ecosystem, with double standards to say the least. Basically if your word was to be followed then Microsoft would be locked out of open source and sent back to exclusively proprietary. I don't regard that as a positive contribution at all.
    Yes, I do judge in the sense of free speech. I'm not a kernel maintainer rejecting contributions.
    Even if I would be a Kernel maintainer there is no rule allowing me denying MS patches - Why should I?

    But morally and ethically I condem their behaviour. These are two separate topics.

    Besides what is your Part in the FOSS game?
    Last edited by CochainComplex; 08 November 2021, 06:46 AM.

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  • CochainComplex
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Reality here jacob Microsoft wants to keep Visual Studio the full product bound to windows to force more Windows sales. Yes Visual Studio Code fits into this so that people cannot keep on asking for Visual Studio the main program to be ported.
    You could easily replace Visual Studio Code by DirectX, MS Office.. and this sentences would be still true.
    Last edited by CochainComplex; 08 November 2021, 04:45 AM.

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  • BesiegedAce
    replied
    Originally posted by ezst036 View Post
    There has been a lot if Microsoft news on Phoronix in the last week or two and the EEE crowd has been silent.

    It wasn't long ago that Microsoft news produced dozens of replies of a particular nature.
    Looking at the replies in this thread, I feel like your optimism was misplaced. Maybe one day they'll stop crying wolf over every single thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • jacob
    replied
    Originally posted by Delgarde View Post

    As long as it lasts, certainly. I mean, they're not perfect — my sense is that they're now comfortable using and contributing to open-source projects, but recent dramas around .NET suggest that they're not so comfortable running such a project, and the relinquishing of absolute control that comes with it. But the situation today is much happier for all parties than back when Ballmer talked about open-source as a cancer that needed to be destroyed.
    That's my point exactly. MS is not an actual open-source company and may never be, but like most technology companies, they now contribute to open source to varying degrees in ways that suits them. This is a good thing. If Microsoft thinks that using and contributing to FOSS is more advantageous than being hostile, all the better for Microsoft and for FOSS alike.

    Leave a comment:


  • Delgarde
    replied
    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    Isn't this the absolutely best outcome imaginable?
    As long as it lasts, certainly. I mean, they're not perfect — my sense is that they're now comfortable using and contributing to open-source projects, but recent dramas around .NET suggest that they're not so comfortable running such a project, and the relinquishing of absolute control that comes with it. But the situation today is much happier for all parties than back when Ballmer talked about open-source as a cancer that needed to be destroyed.

    Leave a comment:

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