Celebrate The Christmas Season With Some Wine: Wine 6.0-RC4 Released

[board]

Both have their uses and places. I prefer both; and the only reason I'm not doing both is system limitations. But if I can run it close to or better than Windows with Wine/Proton then that's what I'll do. If it doesn't work there then Windows in a VM (or dual booting in my case).

That said, I'm designing my next PC based upon Emulation + PCI Passthrough. I just like the idea of using a container OS and then running other operating systems and desktops from there. I've accepted that Windows in a necessary evil and know that I'll have to keep it around just in case. I figure that if I have to keep it around I'd rather it be in a VM than bare metal.

What you are saying is very reasonable. I was actually thinking about that myself, more specifically about the Adobe suite and some drivers that just aren't available on Windows. Both Wine and VM technology have their place undoubtedly.

But the person I was replying to was saying that Wine is junk because we have PCI passthrough and KVM, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying sqlite is junk because we have postgresql. We should be very happy that we have something like Wine/Proton/DXVK/etc., they are a gift from God and he can disagree all he wants. I just tried to highlight as much as I could the benefits of a compatibility layer such as Wine vs. an emulator.

[dacha]

This software is a junk even after 20 years I would be surprised if it could run minesweeper of mspaint without tons of bugs and crashes.
If something should've died that should be Wine instead of CUPS.

I would rather have Apple die.

Microsoft's applications are usually the hardest to get working in Wine, as they use the APIs in all kinds of unusual ways and rely on undocumented behaviour.

Vmware, Virtualbox, Dosbox beats this to the punch not to mention the PCI passthrough feature in KVM where you can install something like Win10 inside KVM and have it access an RTX card directly on the host and take full advantage of the hw.

Yet every app that works in Wine is automatically a portable app, as its WINEPREFIX directory is a self-contained system with its own settings / drive letters / Windows "registry", and can be backed up, copied to other machines, run off a USB flash drive, delivered over NFS to diskless clients, run on mobile devices with x11vnc. Superior installation, configuration, deployment and administration. Good luck doing that with Windows itself.

Wine has improved immeasurably since I started using it 15 years ago, and it seems to have less and less issues. Java and Python work well on Wine. Windows 10 Platform SDK works. Visual Studio 2019 needed only 4 patches to install and run. Even Cygwin, a nightmare user of low-level APIs, needs just 1 patch. Gaming with Wine has seen a revolution in recent years. And .NET 5 is now out and fully open-source, so all the .NET issues should fizzle out. We got Hangover and winevdm. FreeBSD support improved a lot this year. There's a patch for ZFS casesensitivity=insensitive. I see a bright future.

[iamjustalittlefox]

This is an idiot right?

This is a troll right? I'll take the bait just in case someone will actually believe you.

Emulation + PCI pasthrough:
- Requires a dedicated GPU (1 for the host, 1 for the guest).
So hw is cheap?

- Is more difficult to setup.
Grow some brains...

- Perfect compatibility, but is still emulation and therefore performance penalties to both computation and I/O are inevitable.
Orly we are soon at the point of 64 vCPUs +1 TB ram is norm in desktop machines and with all the virtualization extensions its near bare metal performance already


- Requires a Windows License (unless you decide to crack it).
I prefer using one of the hundreds of my companies licences cause its frei

- Comes with all the bloat, telemetry and spyware that Windows forces upon its users. This is very difficult, if not impossible to disable entirely.
Decrappyfier, grow some brains again

- Forced Windows Updates.
Disable the windows update service

- Is inherently more secure from malware due to being run in a VM. This is only true if whatever you're doing will never get out of the box. If you're authenticating yourself for some service/website inside the VM, you might still need an AntiVirus to protect your credentials or whatever services you're using. Also files that you use in a contaminated VM can leak malware to other places if you decide to transfer them to a friend or another device, so an AV might be needed for this reason as well.

Who cares? what will malware do pwn one of my 353215 steam accounts I dont care about or origin/riot accounts which are frei to make

Wine/Proton(-GE) + DXVK:
- No dedicated HW required.
G what a point

- Is moderately easy to setup (Lutris/Steam) with plenty of tutorials online.
wine brain.exe


- Runs Windows applications natively, albeit on a compatibility layer. This layer isn't perfect, but it's really good. Near-Windows performance on some modern games has been achieved with DXVK. Sometimes it even runs better than on native Windows.
Doubt that

- Is completely free.
Who cares I rather pay a small fee for quality time is money

- Has no built-in bloat, telemetry or spyware. The only way for you to encounter these things is from apps you're trying to run.
again who cares if you claim you cant disable all in win10 then use win7

- You have full control over which version to use (no forced updates).
...

- Extra steps required to make sure malware cannot escape to the rest of the system. This is a non-issue if you run games/apps from trusted sources. (Highly recommended tools for signature verification in case you got a trusted app from a dodgy source: osslsigncode and innoextract.)
So if you only use trusted sources at the first place why is VM less secure...

Think again before you post some nonsense like this, I'm sure this is a wine dev...


Wine is a pragmatic way to independence from Microsoft and Windows, while VMs keep you involuntarily hooked.

[skeevy420]

What you are saying is very reasonable. I was actually thinking about that myself, more specifically about the Adobe suite and some drivers that just aren't available on Windows. Both Wine and VM technology have their place undoubtedly.

But the person I was replying to was saying that Wine is junk because we have PCI passthrough and KVM, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying sqlite is junk because we have postgresql. We should be very happy that we have something like Wine/Proton/DXVK/etc., they are a gift from God and he can disagree all he wants. I just tried to highlight as much as I could the benefits of a compatibility layer such as Wine vs. an emulator.

I totally agree. Wine, Proton, and DXVK have done a lot in regards to making the Linux desktop a more enjoyable experience. Aside from emulation, because some of my favorite games are SNES and PSX, I basically gave up PC gaming for a decade because I was a strictly Linux person and the few Linux native games there were I wasn't interested in.

These days, because of Wine and Proton...and companies like Feral, Paradox, Squad; can't forget them...I play most all of my offline, single player games on Linux and the few multiplayer games I play are on Windows because I just don't want to risk a VAC ban. I think the only single player game I use Windows for is Cyberpunk since my PC isn't up to par for it. I figure if it isn't up to par on Windows then using Wine or Proton would be as productive as just shooting myself in the foot.

[board]

This is an idiot right?

Oh, I guess I am an idiot after all, I didn't know I was talking to a 6 year old. After this post promise me to go back to mommy ok?

So hw is cheap?

No, it's not.

Grow some brains...

Do us all a favor and follow your own advice.

Orly we are soon at the point of 64 vCPUs +1 TB ram is norm in desktop machines and with all the virtualization extensions its near bare metal performance already

When did I deny that PCI passthrough was fast? KVM is fast as well. There is however still undeniably a performance penalty for virtualization both in terms of computation and especially I/O. It's still desirable to bypass virtualization for this reason alone.

"64 vCPUs +1 TB ram is norm in desktop machines", not everyone has that kind of money.

I prefer using one of the hundreds of my companies licences cause its frei

It's spelled "free". Not everyone has a non-OEM license laying around, they normally cost people money, or they have to use a crack.

Decrappyfier, grow some brains again

How is engaging in a cat and mouse game with Microsoft a brainy move? Isn't it better for people to collectively migrate to Wine and cut of Microsofts telemetry entirely?

Disable the windows update service

Many people have had problems with that, here is one example: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...4-a4d3782f273d

Who cares? what will malware do pwn one of my 353215 steam accounts I dont care about or origin/riot accounts which are frei to make

That's not a good answer to bad security I'm afraid.

Wine/Proton(-GE) + DXVK:
- No dedicated HW required.
G what a point

Money.

- Is moderately easy to setup (Lutris/Steam) with plenty of tutorials online.
wine brain.exe

Child.

- Runs Windows applications natively, albeit on a compatibility layer. This layer isn't perfect, but it's really good. Near-Windows performance on some modern games has been achieved with DXVK. Sometimes it even runs better than on native Windows.
Doubt that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2_LlSaYNUo

- Is completely free.
Who cares I rather pay a small fee for quality time is money

You save time by using Wine rather than a VM and putting up with slow random I/O. Furthermore, it takes time to make money and pay for another GPU and extra RAM.

- Has no built-in bloat, telemetry or spyware. The only way for you to encounter these things is from apps you're trying to run.
again who cares if you claim you cant disable all in win10 then use win7

It's a cat and mouse game. If we have the option to not play it, it's better not to.

- Extra steps required to make sure malware cannot escape to the rest of the system. This is a non-issue if you run games/apps from trusted sources. (Highly recommended tools for signature verification in case you got a trusted app from a dodgy source: osslsigncode and innoextract.)
So if you only use trusted sources at the first place why is VM less secure...

I agree, but Windows is still inherently insecure. If you were to run an untrustworthy program/installer, you'd need an AntiVirus on Windows, on Linux this problem can be mitigated differently by using UNIX permissions/iptables/namespaces/seccomp etc. It's more difficult to make it secure, but it's doable, and you don't need an AV.

[board]

I totally agree. Wine, Proton, and DXVK have done a lot in regards to making the Linux desktop a more enjoyable experience. Aside from emulation, because some of my favorite games are SNES and PSX, I basically gave up PC gaming for a decade because I was a strictly Linux person and the few Linux native games there were I wasn't interested in.

These days, because of Wine and Proton...and companies like Feral, Paradox, Squad; can't forget them...I play most all of my offline, single player games on Linux and the few multiplayer games I play are on Windows because I just don't want to risk a VAC ban. I think the only single player game I use Windows for is Cyberpunk since my PC isn't up to par for it. I figure if it isn't up to par on Windows then using Wine or Proton would be as productive as just shooting myself in the foot.

It would be a shame to get VAC banned when running Steam+Proton, this should be supported by all games on Steam. But I still understand if you wouldn't take that risk.

Yeah Cyberpunk is not even stable on Windows, I saw plenty of Youtube footage lol. Regarding Linux, I also heard that it still wont run if you have an Nvidia card because of some unimplemented Vulkan feature in their drivers. Everything is still very early, and it'll likely take months before it gets stable. I personally don't think the hype was worth it, or the almost 1000 comments in https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/4450. Imo, there is a plethora of more interesting games out there.

[torsionbar28]

Regarding Linux, I also heard that it still wont run if you have an Nvidia card

Starts/runs normally with AMD Radeon. Crash immediately after the Projekt Red startup logo is what happens with Nvidia hardware according to the forums. But meh, no self-respecting Linux user has an Nvidia card anyways. Nvidia is to GPU world what Microsoft is to OS world.

[Paradigm Shifter]

He bought it based on TV commercials and Google news feed hype not even knowing what kind of game it was. I didn't buy it until I watched him play it and said to myself "I bet all this bullshit is fixable on PC"....and it is. When I saw the stat point distribution when he started the game I just thought "Fuck me running, we're in for a ride" because I don't think he's ever played a game that had stat points or skill trees. "Leveling up" in GTA games is as close as it gets for him.

"Oh this game has MAGIC in it. I'm not playing this fake bullshit. Put in Tomb Raider."
--My Dad on Every Fantasy Game Ever

Tomb Raider. The series with mythical artefacts, dinosaurs, strange not-human civilisations and a player character that can perform acrobatics which - at the very least - would result in the individual attempting it dislocating both shoulders, likely followed by falling to their doom? That Tomb Raider?

I've largely avoided any sort of info on Cyberpunk 2077. Saw the announcement about CDPR making it, thought, "OK, I'll pay attention again when it's released," it released, people complained about bugs (although I have no idea what possessed CDPR to try making it for PS4/XB1) and I switched off again for the most part. I'll care again when it reaches a price I'm prepared to pay in a sale. Until then I'm content with Total War: Warhammer 2 and Disgaea 4/5, with occasional rose-tinted-glasses returns to Deus Ex or Vampire: Bloodlines.

[skeevy420]

Tomb Raider. The series with mythical artefacts, dinosaurs, strange not-human civilisations and a player character that can perform acrobatics which - at the very least - would result in the individual attempting it dislocating both shoulders, likely followed by falling to their doom? That Tomb Raider?

I've largely avoided any sort of info on Cyberpunk 2077. Saw the announcement about CDPR making it, thought, "OK, I'll pay attention again when it's released," it released, people complained about bugs (although I have no idea what possessed CDPR to try making it for PS4/XB1) and I switched off again for the most part. I'll care again when it reaches a price I'm prepared to pay in a sale. Until then I'm content with Total War: Warhammer 2 and Disgaea 4/5, with occasional rose-tinted-glasses returns to Deus Ex or Vampire: Bloodlines.

I know, right. He's always been one of those if there's too much fantasy then I won't play gamers. I don't think he's played games like Resident Evil since the PSX days because they became too fake as the graphics got better...which is funny because he watches TWD, but whatever. The Metal Gear Solid series was too fantasy for him. But a big titty chick doing backflips while shooting mythical creatures? Totally OK. Like, he wants to play Death Stranding because it just looks awesome in videos, but the story looks too fantasy for him so I doubt he'll bite.

I didn't even know about Cyberpunk 2077 until this month. I came into it not knowing any of the hype, promised features, or anything like that. I suppose it isn't that bad of a game if you don't know what you're missing. Aside from the Mantis Blade kill animation I'm having a blast playing it....and half the part of having a blast is how severely unbalanced things are. I'm going to be genuinely upset if they balance out the stats and perk rewards and whatnot.

[board]

Starts/runs normally with AMD Radeon. Crash immediately after the Projekt Red startup logo is what happens with Nvidia hardware according to the forums. But meh, no self-respecting Linux user has an Nvidia card anyways. Nvidia is to GPU world what Microsoft is to OS world.

Yeah, I own an Nvidia card, shame on me. But I bought it a long time ago, before AMD's open-source drivers were a thing.

I'd like to ask, how are AMD's open-source drivers doing stability-wise? If they're actually stable and in general run well with Wine, I might actually consider choosing AMD next time I need to buy a new card.