Systemd 246 Released With Many Changes

[ssokolow]

OpenSUSE has https://software.opensuse.org/explore that is both a official repo browser and a "PPA" aka community packages browser.
See for example if I search for zfs that isn't in main repos. https://software.opensuse.org/package/zfs
(yes you can use OBS repositories to host stuff for other distros too, as you see with ZFS)
And installing can be done manually or by "1-click-install" which opens a GUI wizard to install the package in your current PC.

I actually was aware of OBS from the people who use it as an alternative to PPAs, however, I wasn't aware of the site in general.

That said, I'm really not a fan of the design. As an app store, it's designed nicely once you select a specific version from the drop-down to prune down the forest of choices, but I can't figure out how to access all the metadata that packages.debian.org and packages.ubuntu.com display (eg. dependencies, package size, easy-to-scan list of platforms a given package is available on, official project homepage URL,bug-reporting URL, changelog URL, list of similar packages) and I'm not left feeling confident that the SRPM link in the expert downloads section will always match the standards I expect from the source tarball links on packages.debian.org... especially given how the design seems to be intended to incorporate the PPA-like aspects into the regular browser, so it's easier for me to overlook that a given package is moderated and maintained to PPA standards, not Debian repo standards.

Afaik zypper (default package manager) can do that on OpenSUSE, out of the box, without any cache or other bs like with Apt.

My issue isn't whether it can do it. "apt-cache search" and "apt search" are both installed by default on *buntu and Debian includes "aptitude search".

My question is what the output looks like and whether it delivers results as instantly as "apt-cache search", even on a machine with no SSD.

no this is not possible with zypper afaik, it's kind of niche though. Just do all searches beforehand and then install stuff.
Besides, how is an installation process going to know that another installation process isn't going to screw with its dependencies or applications?

I forget how emerge does it, but I tend to get in "f**k! OK. Do I Ctrl+C the in-progress package installation to add a few more packages to the list with no overlapping dependencies that aren't already installed or do I write myself a note?" situations.

...and, while it's not a big deal for me anymore since I do basically everything from the console, I used to have problems with the GUI tooling blocking apt-get and vice-versa, even when I just wanted a graphical analogue to "apt-cache search". (It hasn't been a problem for me since I ripped out the GUI update manager and hacked together a minimal replacement to restore the "don't nag to reboot" setting.)

[starshipeleven]

I have tried OpenSUSE in past (~7 years ago), and it was the worst experience I had with Linux, as it looked horrible out of the box.

That's a lot of time ago

[starshipeleven]

I can't figure out how to access all the metadata that packages.debian.org and packages.ubuntu.com display (eg. dependencies, package size, easy-to-scan list of platforms a given package is available on, official project homepage URL,bug-reporting URL, changelog URL, list of similar packages)

A more advanced view if you click on the repo name, for example in the ZFS page, show experimental, then click on "filesystems", but it does not have most of that. (for a nother package like Anjuta that is in default repo you need to click on "show anjuta for other distributions" first https://software.opensuse.org/package/anjuta
You get more information if you use Yast's package manager GUI.

it's easier for me to overlook that a given package is moderated and maintained to PPA standards, not Debian repo standards.

Not sure how you can overlook clicking on a yellow button called "show experimental packages" for a official development repo or a red button called "show community packages" for packages that are only in OBS.

Packages in official repos like anjuta https://software.opensuse.org/package/anjuta show the install buttons under their description, and to access development or community repos you need to click on the "show anjuta for other distributions".

My question is what the output looks like and whether it delivers results as instantly as "apt-cache search", even on a machine with no SSD.

This is searching only in package names, but that's how results are formatted anyway. I don't have systems without an SSD rootfs, but on a SSD it takes less than 5 seconds.

sudo zypper search yast
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...

S  | Name                              | Summary                                                         | Type
---+-----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------+--------
   | autoyast2                         | YaST2 - Automated Installation                                  | package
i+ | autoyast2-installation            | YaST2 - Auto Installation Modules                               | package
   | devel_yast                        | YaST Development                                                | pattern
   | icewm-theme-yast-installation     | openSUSE Tumbleweed branding for IceWM during the installation  | package
   | live-add-yast-repos               | A script to add the repos from control.xml to the system        | package
   | patterns-gnome-gnome_yast         | YaST GNOME User Interfaces                                      | package
i+ | patterns-kde-kde_yast             | YaST KDE User Interfaces                                        | package
   | patterns-yast-devel_yast          | YaST Development                                                | package
i+ | patterns-yast-x11_yast            | YaST User Interfaces                                            | package
i+ | patterns-yast-yast2_basis         | YaST System Administration                                      | package
   | patterns-yast-yast2_install_wf    | YaST Installation Packages                                      | package
   | ruby2.7-rubygem-yast-rake         | Rake tasks providing basic work-flow for Yast development       | package
   | ruby2.7-rubygem-yast-rake-doc     | RDoc documentation for yast-rake                                | package
i+ | yast2                             | YaST2 Main Package                                              | package
   | yast2-adcommon-python             | Common code for the yast python ad modules                      | package
i+ | yast2-add-on                      | YaST2 - Add-On media installation code                          | package
   | yast2-adsi                        | Active Directory Compatible Service Interfaces Editor           | package
   | yast2-aduc                        | Active Directory Users and Computers for YaST                   | package
i+ | yast2-alternatives                | YaST2 - Manage Update-alternatives switching                    | package
i+ | yast2-apparmor                    | YaST2 - Plugins for AppArmor Profile Management                 | package
   | yast2-audit-laf                   | YaST2 - Configuration of Linux Auditing (LAF)                   | package
i+ | yast2-auth-client                 | YaST2 - Centralised System Authentication Configuration         | package
i+ | yast2-auth-server                 | A tool for creating identity management server instances        | package
   | yast2-boot-server                 | YaST2 - Network Booting and Wake-On-Lan Configuration           | package
i+ | yast2-bootloader                  | YaST2 - Bootloader Configuration                                | package
   | yast2-buildtools                  | Minimal set of tools needed to build yast module                | package
   | yast2-caasp                       | YaST2 - CaaSP Module                                            | package
   | yast2-cluster                     | Configuration of cluster                                        | package
   | yast2-configuration-management    | YaST2 - YaST Configuration Management                           | package
i+ | yast2-control-center              | YaST2 - Control Center                                          | package
i+ | yast2-control-center-qt           | YaST2 - Control Center (Qt Version)                             | package
i+ | yast2-core                        | YaST2 - Core Libraries                                          | package
   | yast2-core-devel                  | YaST2 - Core Libraries                                          | package
i+ | yast2-country                     | YaST2 - Country Settings (Language, Keyboard, and Timezone)     | package
i+ | yast2-country-data                | YaST2 - Data files for Country settings                         | package
   | yast2-devtools                    | YaST2 - Development Tools                                       | package
   | yast2-dhcp-server                 | YaST2 - DHCP Server Configuration                               | package
   | yast2-dns-manager                 | Samba Internal DNS Manager                                      | package
   | yast2-dns-server                  | YaST2 - DNS Server Configuration                                | package
   | yast2-docker                      | YaST2 - GUI for docker management                               | package
   | yast2-drbd                        | YaST2 - DRBD Configuration                                      | package
   | yast2-fcoe-client                 | YaST2 - Configuration of Fibre Channel over Ethernet            | package
i  | yast2-firewall                    | YaST2 - Firewall Configuration                                  | package
   | yast2-firstboot                   | YaST2 - Initial System Configuration                            | package
   | yast2-firstboot-wsl               | YaST2 firstboot settings for WSL images                         | package
i+ | yast2-fonts                       | YaST2 - Fonts Configuration                                     | package
i+ | yast2-ftp-server                  | YaST2 - FTP configuration                                       | package
   | yast2-geo-cluster                 | Configuration of booth                                          | package
   | yast2-gpmc                        | Group Policy Management Console for YaST                        | package
i+ | yast2-hardware-detection          | YaST2 - Hardware Detection Interface                            | package
   | yast2-http-server                 | YaST2 - HTTP Server Configuration                               | package
i+ | yast2-installation                | YaST2 - Installation Parts                                      | package
   | yast2-installation-control        | YaST2 - RNG schema for installation control files               | package
   | yast2-instserver                  | YaST2 - Installation Server Configuration and Management        | package
   | yast2-iplb                        | Configuration of iplb                                           | package
i+ | yast2-iscsi-client                | YaST2 - iSCSI Client Configuration                              | package
   | yast2-iscsi-lio-server            | Configuration of iSCSI LIO target                               | package
   | yast2-isns                        | Configuration of isns                                           | package
i+ | yast2-journal                     | YaST2 - Reading of systemd journal                              | package
   | yast2-kdump                       | Configuration of kdump                                          | package
i+ | yast2-ldap                        | YaST2 - LDAP Agent                                              | package
i+ | yast2-logs                        | Scripts for handling YAST logs                                  | package
i+ | yast2-mail                        | YaST2 - Mail Configuration                                      | package
i+ | yast2-metapackage-handler         | YaST2 - Easy Installation of Add-on RPMs using Metapackages     | package
   | yast2-multipath                   | YaST2 - Multipath Configuration                                 | package
i+ | yast2-network                     | YaST2 - Network Configuration                                   | package
i+ | yast2-nfs-client                  | YaST2 - NFS Configuration                                       | package
i+ | yast2-nfs-common                  | Configuration of NFS, common parts                              | package
   | yast2-nfs-server                  | YaST2 - NFS Server Configuration                                | package
i+ | yast2-nis-client                  | YaST2 - Network Information Services (NIS, YP) Configuration    | package
   | yast2-nis-server                  | YaST2 - Network Information Services (NIS) Server Configuration | package
i+ | yast2-ntp-client                  | YaST2 - NTP Client Configuration                                | package
i+ | yast2-online-update               | YaST2 - Online Update (YOU)                                     | package
   | yast2-online-update-configuration | Configuration of Online Update                                  | package
i+ | yast2-online-update-frontend      | YaST2 - Online Update (YOU)                                     | package
i+ | yast2-packager                    | YaST2 - Package Library                                         | package
i+ | yast2-pam                         | YaST2 - PAM Agent                                               | package
i+ | yast2-perl-bindings               | YaST2 - Perl Bindings                                           | package
i+ | yast2-pkg-bindings                | YaST2 - Package Manager Access                                  | package
   | yast2-pkg-bindings-devel-doc      | YaST2 - Documentation for yast2-pkg-bindings package            | package
i+ | yast2-printer                     | YaST2 - Printer Configuration                                   | package
i+ | yast2-proxy                       | YaST2 - Proxy Configuration                                     | package
i+ | yast2-python3-bindings            | Python3 bindings for the YaST platform                          | package
i+ | yast2-qt-branding-openSUSE        | openSUSE Tumbleweed branding for YaST2 Qt                       | package
i+ | yast2-rdp                         | Setup Remote Desktop Protocol service for remote administration | package
   | yast2-rear                        | YaST2 - Rear - Relax and Recover                                | package
   | yast2-rmt                         | YaST2 - Module to configure RMT                                 | package
i+ | yast2-ruby-bindings               | Ruby bindings for the YaST platform                             | package
i+ | yast2-samba-client                | YaST2 - Samba Client Configuration                              | package
   | yast2-samba-provision             | YaST2 - Samba AD DC provision                                   | package
i+ | yast2-samba-server                | YaST2 - Samba Server Configuration                              | package
i+ | yast2-scanner                     | YaST2 - Scanner Configuration                                   | package
   | yast2-schema                      | YaST2 - AutoYaST Schema                                         | package
i+ | yast2-security                    | YaST2 - Security Configuration                                  | package
i+ | yast2-services-manager            | YaST2 - Services Manager                                        | package
i+ | yast2-slp                         | YaST2 - SLP Agent and Library                                   | package
   | yast2-slp-server                  | YaST2 SLP Daemon Server Configuration                           | package
i+ | yast2-snapper                     | YaST - file system snapshots review                             | package
i+ | yast2-sound                       | YaST2 - Sound Configuration                                     | package
   | yast2-squid                       | Configuration of squid                                          | package
i+ | yast2-storage-ng                  | YaST2 - Storage Configuration                                   | package
i+ | yast2-sudo                        | YaST2 - Sudo configuration                                      | package
i+ | yast2-support                     | YaST2 - Support Inquiries                                       | package
i+ | yast2-sysconfig                   | YaST2 - Sysconfig Editor                                        | package
   | yast2-testsuite                   | YaST2 - Testsuite                                               | package
i+ | yast2-tftp-server                 | YaST2 - TFTP Server Configuration                               | package
i+ | yast2-theme                       | YaST2 - Theme                                                   | package
i+ | yast2-theme-breeze                | YaST2 - Breeze icon theme                                       | package
i+ | yast2-theme-oxygen                | YaST2 - Oxygen icon theme                                       | package
i+ | yast2-trans                       | YaST2 - Translation Container Package                           | package
i+ | yast2-transfer                    | YaST2 - Agent for Various Transfer Protocols                    | package
i+ | yast2-tune                        | YaST2 - Hardware Tuning                                         | package
i+ | yast2-update                      | YaST2 - Update                                                  | package
   | yast2-update-FACTORY              | YaST2 - Update                                                  | package
   | yast2-usbauth                     | YaST2 component for usbauth configuration                       | package
i+ | yast2-users                       | YaST2 - User and Group Configuration                            | package
i+ | yast2-vm                          | Configure Hypervisor and Tools for Xen and KVM                  | package
i+ | yast2-vpn                         | A YaST module for configuring VPN gateway and clients           | package
i+ | yast2-x11                         | YaST2 - X11 support                                             | package
i+ | yast2-xml                         | YaST2 - XML Agent                                               | package
i+ | yast2-ycp-ui-bindings             | YaST2 - YCP Bindings for the YaST2 User Interface Engine        | package
   | yast2-ycp-ui-bindings-devel       | YaST2 - YCP Bindings for the YaST2 User Interface Engine        | package
i+ | yast2_basis                       | YaST System Administration                                      | pattern

I forget how emerge does it, but I tend to get in "f**k! OK. Do I Ctrl+C the in-progress package installation to add a few more packages to the list with no overlapping dependencies that aren't already installed or do I write myself a note?" situations.

I've stopped or terminated package installs many times in the past on OpenSUSE and it's always been fine (while my experience with Apt tells me you have a good chance of breaking something and needing to force uninstall or run the fix install commands). Obviously you should not interrupt it when it is doing its weekly 1GB distro upgrade on Tumbleweed, although I did that too (by mistake) a few times and it was also fine.

I used to have problems with the GUI tooling blocking apt-get and vice-versa,

you can either disable the check-for-updates feature in the KDE applet or outright remove GNOME Software as that's the only software that will block it at random times.

[tildearrow]

I don't have systems without an SSD rootfs, but on a SSD it takes less than 5 seconds.

Takes between 6.5-59 seconds on HDD (10 year old low-end computer).

[ssokolow]

Takes between 6.5-59 seconds on HDD (10 year old low-end computer).

In other words, it's apt search, not apt-cache search. (apt-cache search takes maybe 3 seconds in those conditions with a cold cache and is instantaneous with a warm cache... meaning that whoever wrote apt search created an inferior successor from the perspective of anyone not on an SSD.)

Not sufficient to meet my requirements.

[ssokolow]

A more advanced view if you click on the repo name, for example in the ZFS page, show experimental, then click on "filesystems", but it does not have most of that. (for a nother package like Anjuta that is in default repo you need to click on "show anjuta for other distributions" first https://software.opensuse.org/package/anjuta
You get more information if you use Yast's package manager GUI.

Not sure how you can overlook clicking on a yellow button called "show experimental packages" for a official development repo or a red button called "show community packages" for packages that are only in OBS.

Packages in official repos like anjuta https://software.opensuse.org/package/anjuta show the install buttons under their description, and to access development or community repos you need to click on the "show anjuta for other distributions".

I'll need to reply to this later when I can evaluate what you've said. I'm half-asleep right now, so the OpenSuSE system is half-incomprehensible to me purely by virtue of it being unfamiliar.

This is searching only in package names, but that's how results are formatted anyway. I don't have systems without an SSD rootfs, but on a SSD it takes less than 5 seconds.

Looks nice... though, as I said, in my reply to tildearrow, its performance seems equivalent to the version of the APT tooling that I avoid for being too slow.

I've stopped or terminated package installs many times in the past on OpenSUSE and it's always been fine (while my experience with Apt tells me you have a good chance of breaking something and needing to force uninstall or run the fix install commands). Obviously you should not interrupt it when it is doing its weekly 1GB distro upgrade on Tumbleweed, although I did that too (by mistake) a few times and it was also fine.

you can either disable the check-for-updates feature in the KDE applet or outright remove GNOME Software as that's the only software that will block it at random times.

Fair enough. Both of these are things I've grown used to with APT anyway... they're just ways that I think Gentoo would be superior if they offered some paradigm where people in a hurry could have the option of precompiled packages. (Was there a derivative distro that did that? I thought I heard about something like that years after I'd switched to Lubuntu but before I'd switched to Kubuntu for better multi-monitor support.)

[starshipeleven]

whoever wrote apt search created an inferior successor from the perspective of anyone not on an SSD.)

Considering that hard drives are on their way out, I'm not worried.

[ssokolow]

Considering that hard drives are on their way out, I'm not worried.

Aside from me just generally not being a fan of needlessly inefficient programs, I specifically work to optimize my system to account for those most-annoying worst-case situations. (eg. I hand-optimized the shit out of my .zshrc and I even used some tricks I haven't seen anyone use before... to the point where parts of it will be skipped if the runtime exceeds 1 second.)

[starshipeleven]

Aside from me just generally not being a fan of needlessly inefficient programs, I specifically work to optimize my system to account for those most-annoying worst-case situations. (eg. I hand-optimized the shit out of my .zshrc and I even used some tricks I haven't seen anyone use before... to the point where parts of it will be skipped if the runtime exceeds 1 second.)

I understand, but my fetish is GUI interfaces and I can accept lower performance if the GUI saves me the effort of remembering stuff, so we are in opposite camps I guess.
That's the general phylosophy of OpenSUSE (and Mageia, not a derivative). Their Yast system configurator GUI is available even in ncurses (aka in true console/terminal, looks like an old BIOS setup screen) and I'm so happy about it.

[ssokolow]

I understand, but my fetish is GUI interfaces and I can accept lower performance if the GUI saves me the effort of remembering stuff, so we are in opposite camps I guess.
That's the general phylosophy of OpenSUSE (and Mageia, not a derivative). Their Yast system configurator GUI is available even in ncurses (aka in true console/terminal, looks like an old BIOS setup screen) and I'm so happy about it.

Hey, I've been editing my vimrc so the gVim menus act as a quick reference card for the various commands I don't use frequently, so I know the feeling of not wanting to remember things... but I also want the things I do remember to be lightning fast.

That said, I definitely appreciate the "looks like an old BIOS setup screen" ncurses option. More things should have that "multiple frontends like the Linux kernel configurator" design.