Originally posted by discordian
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Originally posted by uid313 View PostI know that F2FS is used on some smartphones, but is it only used on smartphones or is it used on laptops and desktops too?
(*) yes, that is not a great idea, but the specific use case made it the better of a bunch of different poor choices.
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View Postsomeone uses it, it can be used.
SSDs used in desktop/laptops are running a FTL anyway as they must be able to run NTFS/Windows so the concept of "flash-friendly filesystem" is meaningless for such devices as is any performance difference with other normal filesystems.
None cares about f2fs features so far as it has no snapshots and volumes.
Everyone invested in server/desktop has already a puppy (btrfs, ZFS or Stratis)
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Originally posted by zyxxel View PostYou need to reconsider your view on "none cares".
F2FS isn't aimed for server/desktop where you have a very intelligent memory controller hidden in the SSD
For example it can compress, but can it compress better than squashfs? Not really. And for a static firmware image you are 100% not caring about the fact that squashfs is read only.
the huge majority of Linux installations are in embedded devices.
Decent ones are using UBI/UBIFS, or jffs2 for read-write partitions and squashfs for read-only partitions (most of the flash space usually)
Stuff with eMMC is more in the industrial sector or for expensive appliances for businness (firewall and such)
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostI am specifically talking of desktop/laptop SSDs.
It was born for and it is most commonly used in Android devices. Outside of that, it's either missing features, or it is not as good as other filesystems.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostFor example it can compress, but can it compress better than squashfs? Not really. And for a static firmware image you are 100% not caring about the fact that squashfs is read only.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View Postembedded devices use raw NAND or NOR chips, which are not block devices so can't use F2FS.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostDecent ones are using UBI/UBIFS, or jffs2 for read-write partitions and squashfs for read-only partitions (most of the flash space usually)
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostStuff with eMMC is more in the industrial sector or for expensive appliances for businness (firewall and such)
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Originally posted by discordian View PostIts pretty much on par with ext4, or what are the downsides here?
If compared to btrfs/zfs it lacks features.
A tar.xz can compress even better. Apples and oranges really.
I haven't dealt with much NAND devices anymore, seems like eMMC is pretty much everywhere nowadays (thank god). Atleast everywhere you can run Linux on top.
Nand has a really funny characteristic, that even when just reading, neighbouring cells will lose its charge, and bit errors can always occur. You cant use squashfs on raw NAND.
I've also seen a mtd partition that was a tar.xz flashed raw on NAND, that was decompressed on boot into a RAMdisk (Zyxel NSA31x line of NAS products), how's that for bit errors?
Ah, and kernel image is still 100% flashed raw on NAND everywhere, no OEM is using a sane uboot that can load stuff from UBI, and in many cases it won't handle bad blocks in the kernel mtd partition either so if that part of the flash develops a bad block the device is fucked.
OpenWrt usually places the squashfs inside an UBI volume, so it's at least protected from bad sectors and such (bad sectors that can happen when doing a firmware upgrade, as that is the moment you are writing a new squashfs image).
What sectors do you think of where that is not the case.Last edited by starshipeleven; 14 July 2020, 03:06 PM.
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostI am specifically talking of desktop/laptop SSDs.
It was born for and it is most commonly used in Android devices. Outside of that, it's either missing features, or it is not as good as other filesystems.
For example it can compress, but can it compress better than squashfs? Not really. And for a static firmware image you are 100% not caring about the fact that squashfs is read only.
embedded devices use raw NAND or NOR chips, which are not block devices so can't use F2FS.
Decent ones are using UBI/UBIFS, or jffs2 for read-write partitions and squashfs for read-only partitions (most of the flash space usually)
Stuff with eMMC is more in the industrial sector or for expensive appliances for businness (firewall and such)
UBIFS works reasonably well for raw flash - JFFS2 has a couple of significant issues, such as huge boot times if there are lots of files in the file system.
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Originally posted by zyxxel View Postlots of embedded devices are likely to use multiple memory technologies. And eMMC is really quite common when designing embedded products running Linux
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Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostOn PC? Much less testing and much less experience in issues that can happen to it if compared to the other filesystems, so its fsck isn't as good in case you are in trouble, if compared to ext4/xfs.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostIf compared to btrfs/zfs it lacks features.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostA tar.xz can't be mounted and read like a filesystem so you need to waste some RAM to make a ramdisk to decompress it into, and you may or may not have that space, squashfs is a filesystem, you can mount it and read the contents while it is still compressed.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostYou are not making consumer stuff I guess.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostI'll send a notice to Zyxel, Netgear, Asus, Synology and a whole list of consumer embedded device manufacturers that discordian said they can't do that.
is that really "raw" NAND or does it come with some proprietary blob, is it some SPI chips that atleast do FEC (NAND is bloody useless without), how are bad sectors handled.
I might not be in the consumer branch but I evaluated several propietary FTLs and NAND Chips (now nearly a decade back).
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostI've also seen a mtd partition that was a tar.xz flashed raw on NAND, that was decompressed on boot into a RAMdisk (Zyxel NSA31x line of NAS products), how's that for bit errors?
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostAh, and kernel image is still 100% flashed raw on NAND everywhere, no OEM is using a sane uboot that can load stuff from UBI, and in many cases it won't handle bad blocks in the kernel mtd partition either so if that part of the flash develops a bad block the device is fucked.
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostOpenWrt usually places the squashfs inside an UBI volume, so it's at least protected from bad sectors and such (bad sectors that can happen when doing a firmware upgrade, as that is the moment you are writing a new squashfs image).
Originally posted by starshipeleven View PostConsumer embedded. Not smartphones/tablets of course, but IP cameras, the central control station for the cameras, NAS, network devices (routers/access points), more specific devices that can't just recycle smartphone hardware, and a whole lot of IoT stuff for consumers, like the "smart washing machines" that have wifi and can connect to a central server so you can start/stop it remotely (totally safe I swear).
A direct NAND IF is a thing of the past AFAIK, look for ex. at the i.MX283 that had multiple channels for NAND chips and you had to do FEC yourself. Might be that I am out of the loop on that, and SPI chips do that in HW?
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