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  • #31
    Originally posted by k1e0x View Post

    Wait wait... I'm just reading this jaw dropped. Uh... just because a command ends in ctl doesn't mean it has anything to do with systemd.

    Linux has a bunch unrelated to systemd too.. I think this is not a good way to go about association for you. Maybe you could read the systemd documentation to find out what it's (terrible syntax) commands are. The reason you have this problem is because they are bad and un re-memorable. Linux doesn't really use good nomenclature when naming things anymore. (ex "systemd" or "ip") If I had to guess as to why it's due to corporate culture at RedHat and everyone else not caring enough to give their projects descriptive names. (or code created by corporate committee) Yes, it matters for users. It's also important to keep things consistent with other unixices but that is something Linux does not seam to care about anymore either. Your last problem is the distro is installing KDE into /usr/bin instead of /usr/local/bin, old problem.. but.. : shrug : that's one of the reasons why ppl use /usr/local, like it or hate it.

    As as far as people who don't like systemd.. we did leave linux because of it 10 years ago. Fuck you back.
    (I mean that as a joke, I like you personally)
    That was kind of my point. All the systemd commands, AFAIK, end in ctl. Then there's other crap ending in ctl...but it's not like there is one simple method to just check and see what all systemd components are installed outside of using a package manager's search function. On a distribution like Fedora Silverblue, there is no searchable package manager to do that with outside of what is provided with Toolbox which may or may not 1:1 correlate to what the host OS has installed.

    A lot of people keep suggesting "just read the man pages" and I have to wonder if those motherfuckers have ever actually typed "man systemd" in their life. If one wants to know setting kernel command line entries and some other things, it's fine, but its not like it has a comprehensive list of every systmed command. For that you have to go to the bottom of the man page and follow the man page rabbit hole. The man page rabbit hole sucks and we all know that one may or may not have good luck doing that. Basically, if one uses a random systemd system, there is no quick and simple way to see what systemd tools are installed outside of just trying what you can remember.

    But that last problem, wasn't pointing out KDE nor system install locations...was highlighting that non-systemd programs use ctl so the dumb search method is only good to an extent. Random crap ending in ctl under /usr/local still may or may not be systemd related since the user might install a systemd component not used by default or might install something that ends in ctl.

    If you can't search the package manager, if the man pages aren't sufficient, and since isn't a common naming scheme, you're up shit creek unless you're a goddamn Rainman.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

      That was kind of my point. All the systemd commands, AFAIK, end in ctl. Then there's other crap ending in ctl...but it's not like there is one simple method to just check and see what all systemd components are installed outside of using a package manager's search function.
      ...
      Basically, if one uses a random systemd system, there is no quick and simple way to see what systemd tools are installed outside of just trying what you can remember.
      Pretty much. I wouldn't be opposed to having a busybox style syntax as brought up earlier like "systemd <utility> <args>", along with symlinks created for the individual utilities. This is something that's already being done (the latter) with tools in /usr/sbin on RHEL. The only thing I'm not sure of is if it's possible to build all of the utilities separately, as (at least the way Red Hat/Fedora package things) all systemd aspects are derived from the systemd spec file. Adding a module/tool requires rebuilding the entire systemd package set. I've personally never built systemd by hand either so i don't know what's involved.

      Just for laughs I did a check for all the systemd binaries (in /usr/bin|/usr/sbin) on my RHEL8 box (rpm -qa systemd*, rpm -ql <package> | grep "bin/"):


      systemd-libs-239-18.el8_1.4.x86_64 (no binaries)
      systemd-udev-239-18.el8_1.4.x86_64
      systemd-pam-239-18.el8_1.4.x86_64 (no binaries)
      systemd-container-239-18.el8_1.4.x86_64
      systemd-239-18.el8_1.4.x86_64

      systemd:
      /usr/bin/busctl
      /usr/bin/coredumpctl
      /usr/bin/hostnamectl
      /usr/bin/journalctl
      /usr/bin/localectl
      /usr/bin/loginctl
      /usr/bin/resolvectl
      /usr/bin/systemctl
      /usr/bin/systemd-analyze
      /usr/bin/systemd-ask-password
      /usr/bin/systemd-cat
      /usr/bin/systemd-cgls
      /usr/bin/systemd-cgtop
      /usr/bin/systemd-delta
      /usr/bin/systemd-detect-virt
      /usr/bin/systemd-escape
      /usr/bin/systemd-firstboot
      /usr/bin/systemd-inhibit
      /usr/bin/systemd-machine-id-setup
      /usr/bin/systemd-mount
      /usr/bin/systemd-notify
      /usr/bin/systemd-path
      /usr/bin/systemd-resolve
      /usr/bin/systemd-run
      /usr/bin/systemd-socket-activate
      /usr/bin/systemd-stdio-bridge
      /usr/bin/systemd-sysusers
      /usr/bin/systemd-tmpfiles
      /usr/bin/systemd-tty-ask-password-agent
      /usr/bin/systemd-umount
      /usr/bin/timedatectl
      /usr/sbin/halt
      /usr/sbin/init
      /usr/sbin/poweroff
      /usr/sbin/reboot
      /usr/sbin/resolvconf
      /usr/sbin/runlevel
      /usr/sbin/shutdown
      /usr/sbin/telinit

      systemd-container:
      /usr/bin/machinectl
      /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn

      systemd-udev:
      /usr/bin/bootctl
      /usr/bin/kernel-install
      /usr/bin/systemd-hwdb
      /usr/bin/udevadm
      /usr/sbin/udevadm
      Cheers,
      Mike

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

        That was kind of my point. All the systemd commands, AFAIK, end in ctl. Then there's other crap ending in ctl...but it's not like there is one simple method to just check and see what all systemd components are installed outside of using a package manager's search function. On a distribution like Fedora Silverblue, there is no searchable package manager to do that with outside of what is provided with Toolbox which may or may not 1:1 correlate to what the host OS has installed.

        A lot of people keep suggesting "just read the man pages" and I have to wonder if those motherfuckers have ever actually typed "man systemd" in their life. If one wants to know setting kernel command line entries and some other things, it's fine, but its not like it has a comprehensive list of every systmed command. For that you have to go to the bottom of the man page and follow the man page rabbit hole. The man page rabbit hole sucks and we all know that one may or may not have good luck doing that. Basically, if one uses a random systemd system, there is no quick and simple way to see what systemd tools are installed outside of just trying what you can remember.

        But that last problem, wasn't pointing out KDE nor system install locations...was highlighting that non-systemd programs use ctl so the dumb search method is only good to an extent. Random crap ending in ctl under /usr/local still may or may not be systemd related since the user might install a systemd component not used by default or might install something that ends in ctl.

        If you can't search the package manager, if the man pages aren't sufficient, and since isn't a common naming scheme, you're up shit creek unless you're a goddamn Rainman.
        It seems a lot don't end in ctl.

        Systemd's complexity is one of the reasons I don't like it. OpenRC does not have this problem. At all. Neither does any other init system. Best I can tell you is just pin a list on the wall in your cube. Yes.. we are at that point. It's eclipsed what mortals can remember off hand.

        Linux should be maintaining their man pages but... you know channeling my inner PHB I'd say "if the man pages *were* up to date then you wouldn't need a paid RedHat Portal account to read the documentation now would you.."
        Last edited by k1e0x; 03-05-2020, 12:31 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by make_adobe_on_Linux! View Post
          Mr 420, eh? I'm starting to wonder how many of the pro systemd people are lefties... All of them? Indeed, I am happy to use a non-systemd distro and watch from the side lines as you all try to fabricate your utopia. Let's move the systemd HQ to San Francisco and perhaps make sure more systemd devs are non-binary: as long as systemd itself is binary!
          I never understood mentality of people labeling a stance with political position without a shred of reasoning or research. You do realize it only results in perpetuating narrative that right wings on internet are idiots, right?

          However, I will not assume worst and believe that you have a reason to make that claim, either philosophical or evidence based. So why do you believe that is the case?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Lecedy View Post

            I never understood mentality of people labeling a stance with political position without a shred of reasoning or research. You do realize it only results in perpetuating narrative that right wings on internet are idiots, right?

            However, I will not assume worst and believe that you have a reason to make that claim, either philosophical or evidence based. So why do you believe that is the case?
            My previous posts in this thread go over the rationale behind association. A monolithic project disobeys the Unix philosophy, gets into many distros, and continues to grow... Perhaps you've skipped over the rationale I laid out. You do realize that we are used to you thinking of us as idiots and that we now realize that you use social shame to control the narrative?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by make_adobe_on_Linux! View Post

              My previous posts in this thread go over the rationale behind association. A monolithic project disobeys the Unix philosophy, gets into many distros, and continues to grow... Perhaps you've skipped over the rationale I laid out. You do realize that we are used to you thinking of us as idiots and that we now realize that you use social shame to control the narrative?
              No. I don't realize. Because you are now claiming Unix Philosophy which has nothing to do with your initial claim. Or are you suggesting that I should prove the negation of your statement?

              In addition, are you suggesting that you weren't attempting to control the narrative by forcing image to people supporting it? Because labelling people certainly does have that effect, either it works or not.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Lecedy View Post

                No. I don't realize. Because you are now claiming Unix Philosophy which has nothing to do with your initial claim. Or are you suggesting that I should prove the negation of your statement?

                In addition, are you suggesting that you weren't attempting to control the narrative by forcing image to people supporting it? Because labelling people certainly does have that effect, either it works or not.
                Classic leftie gobbledygook. I didn't make any "initial claims." Others have liked my posts & the unix philosophy violations of systemd are basically self evident at this point. I'm only replying to posts of substance from now on. Yours does not qualify.

                Comment

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