Originally posted by oiaohm
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systemd Clocks In At More Than 1.2 Million Lines
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Originally posted by aht0 View PostSlackware still is using rc.
I am gonna install Slackware again somewhere to see, what 'wrong processes' get killed so persistently. Been long time.
End up killing the wrong process is not something that is easy to do at will. But it will kind of Murphy law you. Its not just kill either if you use signals between processes thing can also get wacky.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View PostOld robust RC was in fact used by slackware and with a Linux kernel end up killing the wrong processes. Yes runit on Linux kernel also kills the wrong processes.
OpenRC half kind of works with cgroups.
Without systemd developers cgroup would still be cgroupv1 and still broken to hell. Without systemd developer proven past question there is no way at all to do pidfile safely on Linux is the reason why 5.1/5.2 Linux kernel are finally getting fixed.
I am gonna install Slackware again somewhere to see, what 'wrong processes' get killed so persistently. Been long time.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View PostThis is not the history. Sysvinit that Linux used did end up hosted at GNU but early Linux this was not a gnu project.
Linux has had a userland mostly made up of GNU parts. But even right from the start there were non GNU parts.
Also if you look in the tools directory of the Linux kernel not everything in there is Linux kernel only. The Linux kernel has never merged stuff in like early freebsd did and the other BSD followed that lead.
SysV was chosen by later distros for it's perceived advantages - which now seem to be have turned into purely "SysV init is baaaad..". One of them being complaint that service management sucked. Instead of fixing it, just using BSD style init or any of the alternatives, no, NIH - we need brand new super project.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostNo this is not true. late 1993 freebsd was the first time they did what was called self hosting. This was basically bring the individual parts of the core under 1 single project. Before that you have split tar.gz files making up BSD/OS in early 1993. Yes the merge its that far back the current BSD users forget it happened.
Exactly the double standard much.
People complain about systemd merging stuff into 1 package this is exactly what world BSD did with kernel and all in 1993 yet people meant to migrate to a BSD to get away from systemd merging thing. So pure double standards.
BSD different OS made using it source show it make sense to merge the init stuff up into a single package so it all is tested with each other and works.
Those 'split files' you do see even today: https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/sna...4/12.0-STABLE/ - I would thus not be putting much stock in your claims about things being done differently on early nineties.
Split up archive files make it easier for installer to install/unpack files according to certain pattern (like debug kernel vs ordinary kernel, ports sources, system sources, lib32 compatibility libs and so forth). It makes sense separating such files into distinct packages.
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Originally posted by aht0 View PostWhy? When there is demand, there are providers. Multiple providers are always better than single mega-monopoly. It's been proven over and over, not only software-wise. It's time-proven tenet of economy.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostNow, one corporation has next best thing to vendor lock on GNU/Linux or what's left of it.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostYou only talk about sysV init and it's deficiencies - there were alternatives. Even on BSD I do have alternatives to old robust RC: runit and openRC.
OpenRC half kind of works with cgroups.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostSorry, but have you (systemd devs) done any better? systemD is almost 10 years old AND yet you still blame kernel. Instead of building knowingly on broken kernel functionality and blaming the kernel - your time would perhaps been better spent sending kernel patches upstream and trying to fix those in advance - only then building your thing.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostYou seem to have completely forget, which project is the more important one. Without kernel, systemd would be meaningless, at least as long as you haven't come up with systemd-kernel of your own.
Systemd pulling the core init part into a single project means when you have a Linux kernel defect that systemd combination of parts is finding fingers can only be pointed in 2 directions either systemd is wrong or the Linux kernel is wrong. This has resulted in many hot debates on linux kernel mailing list and has resulted in a lot of core issues being fixed.
Basically systemd is providing the Linux kernel with the self host test freebsd has had since 1993. As in a bundle of software that should work. Freebsd merge is still better because you get down to 1 party. But being at 2 parties is better than the 20+ before systemd.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostFrom user's perspective, there is some difference to whether 'broken thing' is new or old. It's still broken but 'old broken' is at least familiar and can be worked around using past experience. With 'new broken' you'll have to spend extra time finding ways around it. For most of us, computer is a tool for doing things. Fixing the tool does not enter into things we want to do before doing our jobs.
Originally posted by aht0 View PostPatched a patch of a patch covering hole in the wall, or what?
To quite Australian politician "the recession we had to have" Paul Keating . "Systemd is the init system Linux had to have" after the Linux kernel internal issues are fixed up then we can restart the init solution fight this time instead of having stack broken badly behaving init systems in fact have init systems that do work.
Basically just like a recession once you get out the other side and everything fixed up then you can get rid of it.
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Originally posted by Bsdisbetter View PostBSD is NOT like GNU/Linux. LINUX is a kernel ONLY. GNU provides the userland. That is the biggest, most obvious difference between BSDs and GNU/Linux.
Linux has had a userland mostly made up of GNU parts. But even right from the start there were non GNU parts.
Also if you look in the tools directory of the Linux kernel not everything in there is Linux kernel only. The Linux kernel has never merged stuff in like early freebsd did and the other BSD followed that lead.
Originally posted by Bsdisbetter View PostBSD has and always will integrate the base set of utilities with the kernel, with the design decision that this provides tight integration. Get it?
Originally posted by Britoid View PostSo FreeBSD can have everything in one project and systemd can't ?
People complain about systemd merging stuff into 1 package this is exactly what world BSD did with kernel and all in 1993 yet people meant to migrate to a BSD to get away from systemd merging thing. So pure double standards.
BSD different OS made using it source show it make sense to merge the init stuff up into a single package so it all is tested with each other and works.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostYes devd is in the Freebsd project that happens to include everything you need to boot the system from the kernel to bootloaders to file system validation tools.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostConfiguration errors in sysvinit done by distributions could end up in a fork bomb so claiming bogs down slower than sysvinit ever managed is wrong if you include distribution errors in configuration. Systemd does put an upper limit how bad a distribution configuration screw up can be.
You missed the fact there are race conditions systemd is in fact dealing with that are in fact coming from the Linux kernel implementation of processes.
Further logical extrapolation leads to another conclusion: that the issue might be 'create some problem, solve it successfully, justify existence based on solving said problem'.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostHard reality you cannot compare systemd issues to darwin/lauchd of apple vs freebsd boot scripts. Yes launchd on darwain is better performance than freebsd current solution. Why you cannot compare is systemd is dealing with a defective process handling in the Linux kernel this increase your overhead a lot. Or if you don't increase overhead and ignore the elephant in the room that pkill killing processes using pidfile in fact killing the wrong process randomly. You use sysvinit and claim faster but it faster by random-ally killing the wrong process.
With how broken the Linux kernel is systemd is the best option at this time. Now Linux kernel 5.1 or 5.2 someone should be able to implement a pkill program that in fact works right.
1) projects with only 1 developer key to boot the system need to be merged into a large project. Like it not systemd did this first. Maybe some of the parts like udev that were merged into systemd should have been merged into kernel tree. BSD had done this merge before a single line of code was written in the Linux kernel. So Linux is kind of late to the party on this bundling.
Now, one corporation has next best thing to vendor lock on GNU/Linux or what's left of it.
You only talk about sysV init and it's deficiencies - there were alternatives. Even on BSD I do have alternatives to old robust RC: runit and openRC.
Originally posted by oiaohm View Post2) Posix/sysv compatible init systems that people tried for over the first 15 years of Linux resulted in developers being userspace and never fixing the low level Linux kernel faults. Freebsd init and kernel are in the same development tree so issues in init that are kernel caused have been fixed kernel side.
You seem to have completely forget, which project is the more important one. Without kernel, systemd would be meaningless, at least as long as you haven't come up with systemd-kernel of your own.
Originally posted by oiaohm View Post3) When ever the is change people get upset and totally go back to old broken instead of looking at the replacement and working out what need fixed so their old broken ceases to be old broken and becomes old and fixed.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostThink about it with cgroups systemd working on a service management system at long last started putting bugs against the Linux kernel and getting those low level issues fixed. Its not only been init systems that have been failing to put bugs against the Linux kernel to fix core defects there are a lot of things that have not be working on fixing core defects.
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So FreeBSD can have everything in one project and systemd can't ?
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Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
Really look again.
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd this is the project /sbin/devd is in. The same personal who modify the devd in freebsd can also modify the kernel source.
Freebsd the kernel and devd like it or not are in exactly the same project.
The systemd System and Service Manager . Contribute to systemd/systemd development by creating an account on GitHub.
Yes if your logic was true. src/udev means that udev is not part of project systemd right because it in a sub-directory.
So lines of code systemd vs freebsd core project that is call freebsd. Yes without question the freebsd one is bigger.
BSD is NOT like GNU/Linux. LINUX is a kernel ONLY. GNU provides the userland. That is the biggest, most obvious difference between BSDs and GNU/Linux.
BSD has and always will integrate the base set of utilities with the kernel, with the design decision that this provides tight integration. Get it?
Therefore, utilities that appear in /sbin, /bin etc are just that, utilities.
The kernel source is in /sys
devd is NOT in /sys.
Therefore it is not in the kernel. Get it?
Your logic defies every known concept of kernel source trees and userland binaries. I am not going to explain it further because you are unable to grasp this simple concept.
Your argument is specious and attempts to bolster your other specious and fallacious argument about LOC. Either way, I've explained the BSD concepts, it's up to you to accept reality or continue being delusional.
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Originally posted by Bsdisbetter View Post
[i cut the rest out tl;dr after this paragraph. Anything else you have to say about bsd is... dare i say, rot...]
What the hell are you on about? devd is not in the kernel, it's a userland daemon. You even linked to its git repository, hint /sbin part... A project does not a kernel make... or vice versa. Boy oh boy.
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd this is the project /sbin/devd is in. The same personal who modify the devd in freebsd can also modify the kernel source.
Freebsd the kernel and devd like it or not are in exactly the same project.
The systemd System and Service Manager . Contribute to systemd/systemd development by creating an account on GitHub.
Yes if your logic was true. src/udev means that udev is not part of project systemd right because it in a sub-directory.
So lines of code systemd vs freebsd core project that is call freebsd. Yes without question the freebsd one is bigger.
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