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systemd Clocks In At More Than 1.2 Million Lines

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  • #41
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    In the last 20 years g++ has broken its C++ ABI 3 times on built binaries and LLVM in the last 10 years has broken it C++ ABI once on built binaries. Mostly because they can since its not part of the standard. I will give you that g++ and LLVM C++ are break the ABI at a slower rate than Microsoft MSVC is doing it. Don't pretend for 1 min they are not breaking it.
    Understating much? I count 13 G++ ABI variants, 9 of those from the last 10 years. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C...ialect-Options

    And that is even ignoring differences in the C library affecting the G++ interface, like int32_t being defined as int or long will affect name-mangling. Thats not a rethorical issue, I was not able to use libraries built with clang with code built with gcc on armv5.
    The only safe way to use C++ interfaces is to build everything with the same compiler & settings. Or define your interfaces "C-Like".

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    • #42
      Originally posted by ThiagoCMC View Post
      I'm serious, really, systemd sucks. It's not even close to being a production ready piece of software.

      I used (Slackware 96) Debian from ~1998 to ~2006 and Ubuntu from ~2006 to this day (2019).

      Some other day a few weeks ago, for the first time in ~20 years, I had to reinstall Ubuntu (a Linux distro) because I could not `ping google.com` and I didn't know what to do to fix it!!! :-O

      I disabled systemd-resolved and added my own `nameserver 8.8.8.8` line within my new /etc/resolv.conf empty file, and it still didn't work!

      Of course, `ping 8.8.8.8` was fine. But `ping google.com` wasn't.

      Solution?

      A.: "format c:"

      Another problem:

      Recently, I was trying to figure out why, from time to time, ALL my VMs on KVM were "suddenly" losing connectivity! GUESS WHAT?!

      At the host, when you run `apt full-upgrade` and `systemd` is in the mix, it will DROP ALL CONNECTIONS!!! Your VMs will be unreachable!!! Then, it will go back after a few seconds...

      Like, WHAT A F*** IS GOING ON?!?! How this garbage is in a "stable" Debian release?!?!?!

      I'm already planning to move to Devuan.

      I really tried to use systemd, for the last ~3 years but, seriously, I tried, it's utter crap.

      I'm tired of it and pissed that I can not trust Debian anymore. Before, I could rely on it, not anymore. Now, they throwing random garbage into stable releases, very sad.

      Looks like that Devuan is the only sane Linux distro out there these days!
      SystemD is not perfect.
      But it works surpringly well, for the huge behemoth it is...
      Usually i find that running it is way better than the alternative. Because there's no real alternative to it.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
        IBM should integrate everything in to the systemd, it is a waste of space and resources to have separate gnome3, pulseaudio, polkit and networkmanager. IBM, KISS and make the systemd OS. IBM would have many times more code lines in the systemd then.

        ;-)
        You forgot the kernel, drivers and libre office...

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        • #44
          Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
          IBM should integrate everything in to the systemd, it is a waste of space and resources to have separate gnome3, pulseaudio, polkit and networkmanager. IBM, KISS and make the systemd OS. IBM would have many times more code lines in the systemd then.
          You want them to make another bsd?

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          • #45
            Originally posted by discordian View Post
            Understating much? I count 13 G++ ABI variants, 9 of those from the last 10 years. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C...ialect-Options

            And that is even ignoring differences in the C library affecting the G++ interface, like int32_t being defined as int or long will affect name-mangling. Thats not a rethorical issue, I was not able to use libraries built with clang with code built with gcc on armv5.
            The only safe way to use C++ interfaces is to build everything with the same compiler & settings. Or define your interfaces "C-Like".
            I was being light based on the ones that break backwards compatibility and using the same style of compiler. libstdc++ from gcc and libc++ from llvm breakages basically.

            Please note I said broken this means I am not counting ABI changes where they added new features and did not break the old. That 13 count of changes is in fact not them all for 20 years. 3.2 only gets you back to 2002 yes 3.1 is a different ABI to 3.2 The number is 19 gcc C++ ABI changes for 20 years and three of those be true break the house changes.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by ThiagoCMC View Post
              I'm serious, really, systemd sucks. It's not even close to being a production ready piece of software.

              I used (Slackware 96) Debian from ~1998 to ~2006 and Ubuntu from ~2006 to this day (2019).
              So basically, you used Linux for 23 years and you're still a complete noob? In any case, I fully support your move to Devuan. It's absolutely the best place for you and like minded people.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                I was being light based on the ones that break backwards compatibility and using the same style of compiler.
                I could create examples for all of this versions that break with code compiled for previous ones.
                V9 was particularly nasty as old code could sometimes crash on hardware with alignment requirements (bug was reported by me)

                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                libstdc++ from gcc and libc++ from llvm breakages basically.
                Sure, but that's an entirely different issue on top of the ABI and not limited to C++ (though it does not make things easier)

                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                Please note I said broken this means I am not counting ABI changes where they added new features and did not break the old. That 13 count of changes is in fact not them all for 20 years. 3.2 only gets you back to 2002 yes 3.1 is a different ABI to 3.2 The number is 19 gcc C++ ABI changes for 20 years and three of those be true break the house changes.
                If C++ libraries would have gone over the board with adding every language feature in the public interfaces, then every of this changes would've visibly broken stuff.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by msotirov
                  systemd is one of the things that make me not feel guilty when I use macOS.
                  systemd is a clone of launchd, which is used on OS X.

                  in-fact, poettering even mentioned that launchd was the inspiration for systemd

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by ThiagoCMC View Post
                    ????????????????
                    Some other day a few weeks ago, for the first time in ~ 20 years, I had to buy a new car because I could not figure out why the 'check engine' light was on and I didn't know what to do to fix it.

                    I went to AutoZone, bought an ODB2 reader, plugged it into the car's port, and it I couldn't figure out how to operate the ODB2 reader.

                    Solution?

                    A.: "buy a new car"

                    Also, you got pissed that it resets the connection during a full upgrade where most sane installers stop and restart daemons....really? How stupid are you? Next time, try my method of "run the minimal amount of software necessary during a frickin OS upgrade for any OS".

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

                      Better life with:
                      sudo apt install wicd
                      sudo apt remove networkmanager
                      sudo apt remove linux-kernel
                      sudo apt install gnu-hurd
                      sudo apt delete debianxfce

                      IBM, Redhat, Intel, Microsoft and Google are the biggest contributors do the Linux Kernel, so as a true XFCE enthusiast I do not use the Linux Kernel, instead I use GNU-HURD. I also dont use Debian which has systemd.

                      Originally posted by Britoid View Post

                      systemd is a clone of launchd, which is used on OS X.

                      in-fact, poettering even mentioned that launchd was the inspiration for systemd
                      And MAC OSX is a clone of XFCE.

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