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Dbus Broker 17 Released - No Longer Depends On Glib, Better Isolation With Systemd

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  • #41
    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    The main purpose of an operating system is to provide predictability, not "choice". You don't have "choice" regarding the ELF format and its structure, or the syscalls ABI, or the scheduling algorithm etc. and there is no reason to think that "choice" of the services and event manager is somehow important. It's not, what is important is that developers can reliably assume that it's there and that it will provide the services they expect, not having to bend backwards to accommodate everyone's obscure "choice".

    This obsession with "choice" is a mere historical accident anyway. UNIX evolved by quick and dirty hack after quick and dirty hack, there was never any vision and no-one ever stopped five minutes to think about what a well designed OS should look like and what it should do. Instead, everyone implemented his own piece of garbage that never actually solved any deeper problem and never provided the One True way to accomplish anything, as a real operating system should. Instead it was simply a "works-for-me" hack. That's how we ended up with dozens of init systems, each of them broken and each of them with different semantics. The systemd project, imperfect as it may be, is at least a long overdue push to leave the *nix crap behind and start building an actual operating system based on Linux. For that I say kudos to them.
    I understand what you said, above, but you haven´ t understood the main purpose of an Operating system ..
    The main Purpose of an OS is to Virtualize the Hardware, so that you can use software above it, simplifying your life... that is the main purpose..

    But "S"ystem"D", is not what you describe at the end...in that section, you describe the crap Windows his... and Linux have made strong name, not basing its principles in the crap Windows is..

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    • #42
      Hmm, I also have a post that is unapproved??

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      • #43
        Originally posted by hreindl View Post

        "bla bla bla bla bla" was a good and short summary for a shitload of nosense
        Your response, speak volumes about your own education..
        Regards

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        • #44
          Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post

          Your response, speak volumes about your own education..
          Regards
          my education is fine but you don't deserve it!
          "systemd" is written excatly as "systemd"

          besides your technical bullshit you write like a child using M$ for Microsoft but talking about education

          AGAIN: you have the choice! use a different distribution and when in 5 years there is none without systemd either pay someone or realize that you are a ghost driver - your choice

          another option would be the time you are wastign by repeat boring bullshit we all hear now for 7 years invest in RTFM and i can assure you that i am no fanboy because i was forced to a dist-upgrade because my new machines not properly supported from the kernel of the running Fedora release and systemd at that moment was not mature or better said Fedora itself was in a terrible shape with way too much sysvinit/systemd-unit mix breaking everything left and right at the start of my vacation this time and i echoed that as loud as possible
          Last edited by hreindl; 01-02-2019, 12:27 PM.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by hreindl View Post

            my education is fine but you don't deserve it!
            "systemd" is written excatly as "systemd"

            besides your technical bullshit you write like a child using M$ for Microsoft but talking about education

            AGAIN: you have the choice! use a different distribution and when in 5 years there is none without systemd either pay someone or realize that you are a ghost driver - your choice
            It doesn´t seems so..

            I started playing around with Linux for more than 20 years now, I worked on Unix( and still work ),
            And I understand that it his difficult to come from Windows, and embrace a different way of thinking, a better way of doing things, a simpler way, summarizing it... a beautiful way..

            A lot of workflows in Windows are done in a reverse mode, and I understand, this diferences because majority of Windows Admins around don´t understand the way we do things...
            look, my company has around 170 thousands Employees around the globe, scattered by more than 70 Countries.. and before this one, I worked in the biggest ones around..
            I have lived many years following the dream that someday a Linux based OS would be perfect..

            Your response says all about the knowledge and the spirit about Unix Philosophy...you still are a Windows user.. ( I have nothing against it! )
            You could even be using Linux, but you haven´t switched to Unix Philosophy ... usually this takes some years to acquire,
            I have seen so many many colleagues with same behaviour of thinking, during his transition years, And I also had that feelings at first.. I can´t count them but they are at least in the thousands..

            I can only speak about the things I know, I learned in the past decades of hard work..
            I understand that the average Joe, think its difficult to launch and adjust an application to behave exactly like it is, when you still have a Windows mentality, its difficult indeed..
            I also recognize that SysVinit needs adjustments..

            But "S"ystem"D" is making more damage, than good, analysing the way it works, the Philosophy behind it.. it is made to be a Windows thing..even its Name, you can start by the name..

            Who the hell in the world, working on Unix/linux( not only with its hands ), but also in Spirit, would create a name like SystemD?
            I ask this question for people at least with 20 years of work in the field, ofcourse, not for Windows people migrating to Linux/Unix, because they don´t even Understand the question..

            No.. SystemD,
            Is written, like it was born to be... "S"ystem"D", a Windows thing, not even following the Unix Philosophy. from the beginning.

            Your last sentence, says all explicitly..
            Quoting you:
            "AGAIN: you have the choice! use a different distribution and when in 5 years there is none without systemd either pay someone or realize that you are a ghost driver - your choice"

            Who voted in favor of that SystemD Trojan Horse?
            I start to loose the faith about our own Community, maybe Mr. Stallman is right after all, and maybe Hurd could be the Solution..

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            • #46
              Originally posted by hreindl View Post
              when people talking bullshit all the time and it stands without correction others which don't know if it's right or wrong sooner or later take that shit as truth if it's only often enough repeated by a loud minority of fools
              Your kinds use the same methods in talking bullshit to people. Like saying "go use flatpaks, they are save, secure, perfect..." and so on. Willingly fooling people by giving them the feeling to use "flat packages" like small sized packages. Making them belive that they use something similar to Apple or Google. Nothing of that has been proven nor is it valid. No real proof that the system is truly save. Willingly ignoring the facts, that you get a Linux System inside a Linux System installed. Similar things being said with "wayland" years back. The so called X11 replacement. Now a decade (is it so ?) has passed and Wayland is no where except GNOME. Nothing else uses it. People still use X11 or XWayland because the wayland crowd put their mouth on a level, where the code has never reached that same level. Years in and out and no where.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
                I can only speak about the things I know, I learned in the past decades of hard work...
                and THAT is the problem, you once thought you are done with learning

                > Who the hell in the world, working on Unix/linux( not only with its hands ), but also in Spirit, would create a name like SystemD?

                nobody, it's systemd without capitals and what the fuck is the windows context you see?
                mysqld, httpd... all windows - seriously?

                fact is that even Unix veterans declared that it was long overdue to replace sysvinit because it has no real concepts at all and was just working somehow all the years and nobody had the balls to replace it with something solve all that mess while other Unix systems did years ago

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Candy View Post

                  Your kinds use the same methods in talking bullshit to people. Like saying "go use flatpaks, they are save, secure, perfect..." and so on. Willingly fooling people by giving them the feeling to use "flat packages" like small sized packages. Making them belive that they use something similar to Apple or Google. Nothing of that has been proven nor is it valid. No real proof that the system is truly save. Willingly ignoring the facts, that you get a Linux System inside a Linux System installed. Similar things being said with "wayland" years back. The so called X11 replacement. Now a decade (is it so ?) has passed and Wayland is no where except GNOME. Nothing else uses it. People still use X11 or XWayland because the wayland crowd put their mouth on a level, where the code has never reached that same level. Years in and out and no where.
                  flatpaks are bullshit because they turn back the time to a world with static linking with all the drawbacks
                  X11 has also to be ripped out sooner or later because it has security problems by design

                  again: you and your 10-20 brothers making a fight about something you can't win, it's that easy, you have to deal with a world outside of sysvinitscripts and if it's only that you place your desired shellscripts in ExecStart, systemd brought way to much ipmrovements all over the userland stuff and maing things exchangebale between distributions that's it's too big to explain it to stubborn fools like your and your view friends with your fingers in the ears crying like a small child "lalala i don't want to hear or understand"

                  anyways, i am using systemd now for 7 years in production, it made everything better and brought security features for services which are near by containers without the drawbacks of containers, it's relieable and working

                  i couldn't care less about fools whining "but it's different than 30 years ago"
                  Last edited by hreindl; 01-02-2019, 02:01 PM.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by hreindl View Post
                    you and your 10-20 brothers
                    Please make a note, that I usually come with my family and clan members and we are more than just 10-20 people. We don't fight with words, we fight with fists and weapons.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by hreindl View Post

                      and THAT is the problem, you once thought you are done with learning

                      nobody, it's systemd without capitals and what the fuck is the windows context you see?
                      mysqld, httpd... all windows - seriously?

                      fact is that even Unix veterans declared that it was long overdue to replace sysvinit because it has no real concepts at all and was just working somehow all the years and nobody had the balls to replace it with something solve all that mess while other Unix systems did years ago
                      Now that is not the problem, that is what makes me realize what the problem is...
                      The knowledge aquired gives you a better vision around, the ecosystem..

                      SystemD, born SystemD, and that is a fact, that´s why I put the question to at least 20 years experienced personnel..

                      everybody Understands that changes need to be made, but a forced solution that doesn´t solve the real daily problems in reality and has a lot of scripts and files for the same thing is not a good approach..
                      Also the dependability is a big risk..

                      And worst, to change and adapt something...you need to recompile it from source and deploy it...its not even practical at all.
                      In my opinion someone should not put a young person on front of the real Unix based systems, if it doesn´t bear in mind the spirit of Linux and Unix Philosophy.
                      It can cooperate yes, he can present ideias, yes of course, but never drive the boat...its a very costly risk, and we start to see it now..

                      Above all, it should be created by many parts, has possible, an Abstract API, to control processes sockets and so on..
                      This API should be agreed by all, and should works for all systems the same way, regarding that inputs and outputs are in same format..

                      If this have been done, today you would not be here discussing about this problem in first place..
                      But everything was done with the interest of one company only, and that is very bad, because an Init system is a very important thing..
                      In my opinion, it should also be based in a interpreted language as much as possible( so that some one can consult code on-the-fly ) with addon plugins extensions

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