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Linus Torvalds On Linux 4.19: "This Merge Window Has Been Horrible"

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  • #21
    Originally posted by gens View Post

    In my country, and in Linus-s country, it is much more as you wish it to be. Well, most of the time.
    From what i see it is mostly a USA thing. I do see it spreading in OSS, though.
    It's like words are no longer just a means to express thoughts and feelings.
    It could very well be mostly a USA thing, but don't forget that Linux has Finnish roots. I don't know if it's normal in Finland, but if so, he carried it with him from Finland.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by geearf View Post
      I'm always impressed by how much Linus knows about the kernel, I mean it's something many many devs work on, not just him, and yet every now and then he quickly finds issues in random PR.

      I also love how he'll refuse stuff on technical grounds, since he's tied to no business.
      LOL. Like the reason why he threw out a proposed scheduler that was based on chaos theory. IBM and Red Hat didn't like it, so it didn't happen. He knows who butters his bread.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
        but don't forget that Linux has Finnish roots. I don't know if it's normal in Finland,
        ...also called by the Swedish "Management by 'perkele!'"



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        • #24
          Originally posted by gens View Post

          In my country, and in Linus-s country, it is much more as you wish it to be. Well, most of the time.
          From what i see it is mostly a USA thing. I do see it spreading in OSS, though.
          It's like words are no longer just a means to express thoughts and feelings.
          I assume you are from Finland , I am from Norway myself and believe me. It is not just a USA thing this over sensitive crap that is happening around the world. People are too high on themselves and it all starts with politicians who gets easily offended by (the truth?) words that describe a event more accurately than what "pretty words".

          I could go on , but Rowan Atkinson (better known as Mr.Bean) describes this very well here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubFIlcPSbeE

          http://www.dirtcellar.net

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          • #25
            Originally posted by WalterCool View Post

            Well, let me split my answers.

            1) libnvdimm was rejected few days ago https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/8/18/274 , so unless it get accepted, is quite a bad idea to PR your code without using Linus master branch, otherwise, you are merging two separate features, adding a lot more complexity to proper debugging and code review. Specially when Linus has strict code and PR standards (https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.1...g-patches.html)
            2) Branching is not rocket science, but usually you would wait to merge feature by feature to avoid complex debugging and simplified analysis. To exemplify this, master = A, libnvdimm = B, XArray = C. So, B is based on A, C is based on B. If you want to merge C -> A, you should wait first to get B -> A merged/approved, so C can be fast-forwarded to A.
            Not doing this, you are mostly gonna piss off any vcs manager, unless main feature is C, and B is just dependency of C. Not this case, both are completely separate features.
            3) If you are doing something stupid and making others wasting useful time, you should get offended and learn about your errors, here words are just words, but is important to acknowledge your mistakes and fix it . Linus usually explodes bad, I agree, but he doesn't explode by every mistake, but mostly by dumb problems, like creating kernel errors and blaming the userspace (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/0...rnel_bug_rage/), making regressions (he really hates this) and/or not following Linux Kernel coding style (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/1...urbation_rant/), fixing userspace bugs with bad kernel code (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/0...evers_dust_up/), etc.

            Look, at least Linus is giving an answer (on a very non-polite way), I met many developers who don't waste their time answering stupid issues, just check opensource projects with PR closed without an answer, ton of them. At least he's honest saying many times is not your friend, don't want to be your friend, respect must be earned, he accept himself as not polite person and he specifically wants to keep a clean and healthy code in kernel, just keep it professional. I'm personally OK with his point of view, of course that would be a subjective opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ017D_JOPY
            Linus does answer (probably reluctantly) and that's great. There's nothing like a changeset sitting in limbo for two years wondering if it's even being considered the entire time. I'm not against his point of view, I think he's correct even. My point is that the answer isn't quite as intuitive as people in this forum (and outside of this forum) make it out to be and to call it unprofessional over an non-intuitive mistake is absurd.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by gens View Post

              In my country, and in Linus-s country, it is much more as you wish it to be. Well, most of the time.
              From what i see it is mostly a USA thing. I do see it spreading in OSS, though.
              It's like words are no longer just a means to express thoughts and feelings.
              It's becoming more of a "western society" thing. In Australia white nurses now have to apologize to aboriginals for being white. It's just part of the whole "offensive" social justice crap.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by computerquip View Post
                What I don't understand about your post is that Linus' reaction would get him in trouble in a normal work environment. He's certainly in a special position where he's controlled and moderated by no one except himself, which may be an advantage. He's also very talented and ridiculously smart... but to say he's professional is ridiculous. His words undoubtedly cause bitter emotions unnecessarily which most don't care for.
                "Professionalism" is a bullshit excuse and doesn't deserve a place in technical discussions. Maybe people who don't understand that shouldn't be writing code or engineering things. I would say Linus is definitely *not* being professional and I for one am extremely happy for that. I think he is a role model for how technical projects should be run.

                What needs to change are these "normal work environments" where feelings get in the way of logic and merit, and people let it happen because they don't want to be "that guy" who made some person cry because they can't use the scientific method.

                Sure, maybe what I'm saying doesn't apply to a shitty little business app to sell dog toys or load cat pictures. But those are irrelevant to people who actually want to do useful things with their software -- AKA good software not constrained by a capitalist world view where money rules and some manager has to constantly please a bunch of idiots.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by waxhead View Post

                  I assume you are from Finland , I am from Norway myself and believe me. It is not just a USA thing this over sensitive crap that is happening around the world.
                  Any examples of when this has offended you?

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                  • #29
                    For all the idiots in charge of so many things, all over the world, at least Linux has a competent leader. Talking directly and frankly is a good thing, not a bad thing.

                    I you've worked very hard at something, and someone tells you it's garbage, and objectively they happen to be right, you should be thankful. It's like someone telling you that you have bad breath. Most won't tell you because they don't want to embarrass you, meanwhile, I'd rather know now than later down the line.

                    Obviously, when it's in the moment and so much work has been done, stress can happen. But a few years later, everyone involved will remember it with gratefulness that Linus had the courage to be honest, objective and direct. He's talking about the work, not the individuals.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by computerquip View Post

                      I have no clue why 9 people liked your post but it's not unprofessional at all. In a normal code base, it's common to base your feature onto another feature to avoid a merge conflict if one is making changes to a similar piece of code. That sort of thing isn't very popular obviously in the Linux kernel (given its very sensitive nature) but it's not very intuitive to *want* merge conflicts. Linus is basically asking for him to cause a merge conflict on purpose which is quite the opposite of what you would normally hear. It depends on the project and how vital each change can be.

                      It was surprising that the tree the patchset was rebased on was rejected. It was rejected for one mistake, the mistake was almost instantly fixed and re-submitted after Linus yelled at the developers about it, and then ignored for days now pending a more scrutinized review probably now that it's thrown red flags.

                      What I don't understand about your post is that Linus' reaction would get him in trouble in a normal work environment. He's certainly in a special position where he's controlled and moderated by no one except himself, which may be an advantage. He's also very talented and ridiculously smart... but to say he's professional is ridiculous. His words undoubtedly cause bitter emotions unnecessarily which most don't care for.
                      People love Linus for the same reason people get mesmerized by dictators like Hitler or Putin... They confuse being an asshole with being a good leader.

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