Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Debian Issues Statement Over Arrested Russian Developer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #71
    Originally posted by GI_Jack View Post
    By "Historical Records", you are going to misquote, use irrelevant data and cite conspiracy theories. I understand that corruption is everywhere, and so are spies, but you'd be really hard pressed to tell me that this particular debian developer is a spy or agent for a government.
    Well, I do not like vague terms such as "consipiracy theories", I have given exact facts you can check, if you are relating to "women's march", you have public lists of organizations that took part in it (both US and EU/Europe/Australia/World), I do not need to insult your intelligence, I am sure you can find it and see it by yourself.

    Furthermore, most of the things i have written are sources "first hand" from people on the ground, not from articles written by people with interest, for me, freedom and human life comes first, everything else, including some idiotic concepts/ideologies such as "democracy", "european values" and all sorts of "ism's" does not even show on the scale.

    Corruption is everywhere, I can't argue with that, nor did i wanted to, nor did I declared that guy as an "spy" or whatever, what I did actually said is that "He is probably innocent in my opinion, but I do not know...", and since I do not know, i can't possibly rule out possibility that he was manipulated, and did some things..., I do not believe that is the case, but I can't rule it out. I am also not suggesting that Russian government consist only of angels in it..., as any other government, it is corrupted, there's no government on earth that isn't, the bigger government is, bigger corruption is...

    Originally posted by gnufreex View Post

    Non-recent history also counts. USians are worst genociders of all times and peoples. Every USian talking anything to Russia should be immediately bitchslaped across his racy mouth

    Also on topic, USA killed Ian Murdock without trial. And Putin is right to arrest this terrorist. I propose a death penalty.
    There is no need for such language..., you can argue your points in polite and nice ways.., no country "comes clean", but I do agree with you that US have one of the dirtiest history of them all for multiple reasons that are way too complex and deep to examine here on this forum.
    Last edited by leipero; 19 April 2017, 05:07 PM.

    Comment


    • #72
      Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
      Good to know Russia isn't any better than USA when comes to users freedom.
      Ignorance is a bliss indeed..
      Some dogmas first:
      • You can safely criticize United States in United States.
      • You can also safely criticize United States in Russia. You would even be applauded for doing it. It matches the official stance.
      • But you are not allowed to criticize Russia in Russia. End of story.





      It's actually sad. You are living in a reasonably free country, well as free as it could be - considering the situation. The fact that U.S is the mightiest country on Earth today and thus automatically has ton of enemies. But you do not seem to appreciate your freedoms at all, or which is worse, you do not realize you have them in the first place.

      You whine, you bitch.. without realizing that the fact you are allowed to do it in the first place is a true sign of freedom in itself.. and I, former citizen of the USSR have to come and explain it to you Seems like I am bigger U.S patriot than most of the crowd from U.S in Phoronix, without even ever visiting the U.S.

      Let me explain you simple differences. Public dissenter in Russian Federation has proven out to have but two possible futures, not mutually exlusive. Jail or grave. It's the nature of the things these days.

      AFAIK Tor is utterly illegal in Russian Federation. Even using it, not to mention providing relay or exit nodes.
      Last edited by aht0; 22 April 2017, 05:39 PM.

      Comment


      • #73
        Originally posted by aht0 View Post

        Ignorance is a bliss indeed..
        Some dogmas first:
        • You can safely criticize United States in United States.
        • You can also safely criticize United States in Russia. You would even be applauded for doing it. It matches the official stance.
        • But you are not allowed to criticize Russia in Russia. End of story.


        It's actually sad. You are living in a reasonably free country, well as free as it could be - considering the situation. The fact that U.S is the mightiest country on Earth today and thus automatically has ton of enemies. But you do not seem to appreciate your freedoms at all, or which is worse, you do not realize you have them in the first place.

        You whine, you bitch.. without realizing that the fact you are allowed to do it in the first place is a true sign of freedom in itself.. and I, former citizen of the USSR have to come and explain it to you Seems like I am bigger U.S patriot than most of the crowd from U.S in Phoronix, without even ever visiting the U.S.

        Let me explain you simple differences. Public dissenter in Russian Federation has proven out to have but two possible futures, not mutually exlusive. Jail or grave. It's the nature of the things these days.

        AFAIK Tor is utterly illegal in Russian Federation. Even using it, not to mention providing relay or exit nodes.
        Just few factual corrections, you are allowed to criticize Russia in Russia and elswhere. Tor isn't illegal in Russia. However, when your media or "NGO" group is sponsored from outside of the country, you are required by law to register as some sort of "foreign organization", and that is actually very good law, since trough such organizations US managed to gain control over sovereign goverments and/or install puppet ones. Furthermore, US have exact same laws, Russian government actually just copied US law, and they publicly stated that. Unfortunatelly, not meny other countries have such laws, so all sort of nonsense is allowed without knowing who actually pays for it.

        Can I make assumption that you are not from Russian part of USSR?

        As for freedoms, well, definition is key here..., see, in Russia (and most places on planet) collecting rain watter isn't illegal, so, each to their own, it really depends what is your actual definition of freedom. Having right to complain, but not having right to act is equal to not having that right at all, just saying.

        Comment


        • #74
          Originally posted by leipero View Post

          Just few factual corrections,(1) you are allowed to criticize Russia in Russia and elswhere.Tor isn't illegal in Russia. However, when your media or "NGO" group is sponsored from outside of the country, you are required by law to register as some sort of "foreign organization", and that is actually very good law, since trough such organizations US managed to gain control over sovereign goverments and/or install puppet ones. Furthermore, US have exact same laws, Russian government actually just copied US law, and they publicly stated that. Unfortunatelly, not meny other countries have such laws, so all sort of nonsense is allowed without knowing who actually pays for it.

          Can I make assumption that you are not from Russian part of USSR?

          As for freedoms, well, definition is key here..., see, in Russia (and most places on planet) collecting rain watter isn't illegal, so, each to their own, it really depends what is your actual definition of freedom. Having right to complain, but not having right to act is equal to not having that right at all, just saying.
          • Indeed? Then why do they tend to end up in a prison or dead prematuredly? I could name you dozen more or less public figures out of hand, starting from early 2000's who were critics of Russian policies or Putin himself or simply knew too much and at some point ended up dead.
          • Tor, VPN and anonymous Web surfing by proxies is illegal in Russia, supervised by Roskomnadzor. I might be wrong but move for this started back 2015 in State Duma. I can actually add to them that state/municipal officials are now required by law to declare all their accounts in social media sites and forums. So that FSB can keep an eye on their activities.
          • Sponsored. Weird choice of words. Media company is usually being "owned" or " partially owned" by percentage of shares and it's common business practise. Suspicion of "foreign agents", "spy-games" or whatever needs special KGB mindset you also seem to share Whatever your reasoning - end result is a tight mechanism allowing shutting down any entity that central government does not like for whatever reason. Effectively it's tight censorship.
          • At the same time I can see for example Russia Today operating in U.S unhindered though supposedly U.S has "identical laws".And I can't see single foreign (U.S or other) media company operating in Russia. In fact, all of them are owned by State or by businessmen who have close relationship with Kremlin. Your story and facts do not match.
          • Example please. And please explain why has Russia not stopped it's dabbling in NGO's and media abroad. In fact, every slight move of self-defense or attempt at restricting Russian dabbling in countries around Russia is being trumpeted as "russiophobia" in Russian media up to the point where average Russian has mental image of Mother Russia being surrounded by enemies who only wish it's destruction and want to abuse poor ethnic Russians abroad.
          • Russia has publicly stated a lot of things. Also plenty of public lies. Want a list?
          • Utter bucket of bullshit. In every civilized country you can easily check up the owner or entity behind some firm.

          You can assume what you like. I speak Russian at home btw. Some relatives speak nothing else.

          If you think that living inside or outside Russia matters, no it does not. Countries around Russia have good access to it's media because they do not have "foreign agents law".
          Last edited by aht0; 23 April 2017, 05:13 AM.

          Comment


          • #75
            Originally posted by aht0 View Post
            • Indeed? Then why do they tend to end up in a prison or dead prematuredly? I could name you dozen more or less public figures out of hand, starting from early 2000's who were critics of Russian policies or Putin himself or simply knew too much and at some point ended up dead.
            • Tor, VPN and anonymous Web surfing by proxies is illegal in Russia, supervised by Roskomnadzor. I might be wrong but move for this started back 2015 in State Duma. I can actually add to them that state/municipal officials are now required by law to declare all their accounts in social media sites and forums. So that FSB can keep an eye on their activities.
            • Sponsored. Weird choice of words. Media company is usually being "owned" or " partially owned" by percentage of shares and it's common business practise. Suspicion of "foreign agents", "spy-games" or whatever needs special KGB mindset you also seem to share Whatever your reasoning - end result is a tight mechanism allowing shutting down any entity that central government does not like for whatever reason. Effectively it's tight censorship.
            • At the same time I can see for example Russia Today operating in U.S unhindered though supposedly U.S has "identical laws".And I can't see single foreign (U.S or other) media company operating in Russia. In fact, all of them are owned by State or by businessmen who have close relationship with Kremlin. Your story and facts do not match.
            • Example please. And please explain why has Russia not stopped it's dabbling in NGO's and media abroad. In fact, every slight move of self-defense or attempt at restricting Russian dabbling in countries around Russia is being trumpeted as "russiophobia" in Russian media up to the point where average Russian has mental image of Mother Russia being surrounded by enemies who only wish it's destruction and want to abuse poor ethnic Russians abroad.
            • Russia has publicly stated a lot of things. Also plenty of public lies. Want a list?
            • Utter bucket of bullshit. In every civilized country you can easily check up the owner or entity behind some firm.

            You can assume what you like. I speak Russian at home btw. Some relatives speak nothing else.

            If you think that living inside or outside Russia matters, no it does not. Countries around Russia have good access to it's media because they do not have "foreign agents law".
            That's way too much to cover, and way off topic, but let's try...

            1. You can name just a few that were promoted in press, same can be true for US or any otehr country for that matter, so you do not have a valid argument here.
            2. Ok, youa re mixing here public law, and something that could be called "constitutional law", since government officials are public figures, paid by public, I do not see anything wrong with such law, in fact, I think that should be the case ine very country, if that is the case at all in Russia.
            3. Owners/share holders usually do not care for much more than return of profit, and they usually do not care from where profit comes, therefore my choice "sponsored", because more often than not, share holders are not the ones who promote articles and so on..., they allow influence of other agencies for profit (the only thing they care about).
            4. CNN, BBC, Free Europe and so on, operate in Russia the same way, the law only requires transparency of founds, it does not censor anything..., so no, your claims have no ground. In fact, both CNN and BBC are on government list of media for questions towards spokesman, I am not sure if RT is on white house list, it was maybe few years ago, not sure about now. So please, if youa re not familiar with the topic, that is not topic of this thread to begin with, do not claim something non-factual when just a look at press-conference could prove your claim wrong.
            5. Example? You are presenting tons of claims without evidence, and that requires twice as much (or more) to show that those claims are non-factual, since you do not bother to support your claims with an example at all, I can't talk in such manner, it is enormous waste of my time, and I am not interested in that. If youa re meaning about laws in Latvia, Ukraine and some other countries where there's significant Russian minority, where by public law they forbid Russian schools, language etc., I am not sure how else you could define that other than "discrimination" and/or "russophobia".
            6. Yeah, i would like a list..., claims without evidence are something you (ab)used in this post a lot, and I can't discuss anything in such manner, sorry, I do not accept such conversations.
            7. That's very debatable, the main point of it is, that they are required by law to register as such, because if they fail to do so, and do such "operations" they automatically get banned from the country (as they should) and fined.

            It's irelevant what you speak, tons of people speak my language at home, yet they despise me just for my ethnicity, nothing else. The reason why i said that, is that ex-USSR countries outside of Russia had it much worse in most cases, and there are multiple reasons for it. Since every government is corrupted (without exception), corrupted "local government" in some sort of Union, would abuse local population even more, since they are controlled by larger (federal) government that can steal without control, so naturally, they will steal more on "surface level", in that way, when they got in problems (with people living bad), they transfer their abuse to federal government (even tho, federal was not directly responsible for those things), and famous escuses kick in: "It's not us, they (federal) do not do X...".

            The same is the case in EU for example, as it was in Soviet Union..., local government would use EU as an excuse for their actions, and you would get excuses such as: "We do not want, but EU requres bla bla...", even tho, it might be the case that EU (federal) government did not require that thing..., and so on. That's why most governments do not want the referendum on those things (yeah, you know, real democracy stuff...), while EU for their own reasons do not want referendums also, so people end up s***d twice, same as it was in USSR.

            What countries have free media arround Russia? Finland? Latvia? Sweden? Ukraine? Let's cover them all. Finland? No..., while they have relative narrative pushing by gov., they are in better position than other examples. Sweden? LOL, give me a break..., they are not even allowed to speak openly about their local topics, let alone something more important..., Latvia? Extreme anti-Russian narrative, since they are target of all those organizations because of their geographical position, they also have laws (same as next example) that forbid Russian language. Ukraine? I think i do not need to comment on country where government openly speaking about "killing Russians" in WW2 style with extremist Neo-Nazi ideology widespread in media and all social spheres, and same as Latvia, Russian press is banned by public law there, even worse laws and actual war at domestic population.

            I mean listen, I can debate you on these topics on 10 pages, as long as you don't use baseless claims i need to spend 10 minutes debunking, while you need 20 seconds to claim..., so, use examples after every claim (as I did in previous posts), and as long as forum members and moderators are ok with our discussion.

            Personally, I think this is not the place for such debate, but I did get annoyed by posters repeatedly claim things without any ground, so I felt urge to respond.
            Last edited by leipero; 23 April 2017, 03:11 PM.

            Comment


            • #76
              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              That's way too much to cover, and way off topic, but let's try...
              1. You can name just a few that were promoted in press, same can be true for US or any otehr country for that matter, so you do not have a valid argument here.
              List involves critics of federal government, investigative journalists (anti-corruption, war crimes or loud critics), human rights activists, opposition politicians or any combination thereof. In one case it's oligarch who fell into disfavor and escaped Russia. I specifically did not list people who seemed to have died due to common crime, car accidents etc where it was unclear if the killing was intentional or just crime. Or the list would be twice-thrice as long. Foreign victims are briefly being commented on.
              Anna Politkovskaya, Boris Bereshovskiy, Paul Khlebnikov, Alexander Litvinenko, Natalya Estemirova, Anastasiya Baburova, Stanislav Markelov, Galina Starovoitova, Igor Domnivkov, Sergei Novikov, Iskandar Khatloni, Sergey Ivanov, Adap Tepsurgayev, Sergey Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Nikolai Girenko, Viktor Yushchenko (anti-Russian candidate in Ukraine, poisoned by lab-quality-pure dioxin), Andrei Kozlov, Daniel McGrory (British journalist who advertised aggressively Georgian indepencence from Russian influence and reported on Litvinenkos case, shot dead),Paul M. Joyal (friend of A. Litvinenko - along with McGrory, both were killed only days days before having to give statements in the killing of Litvinenko), Boris Nemtsov, Jan Travinsky, Magomed Varisov, Ivan Safronov, Vyacheslav Ifanov, Ilyas Shurpayev, Magomed Yevloyev, Vladislav Zakharchuk, Vyacheslav Yaroshenko, Konstantin Popov, Maxim Zuyev, Shamil Aliyev, Magomed Sultanmagomedov, Gadzhimurat Kamalov, Timur Kuashev, Yevgeny Khamaganov, Nikolay Andrushenko.

              Opposition politicians/activists jailed:
              In the hundreds. Too many to write down. Usually jailing campaign starts before election cycle or before big demonstration of some sort.

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              2. Ok, youa re mixing here public law, and something that could be called "constitutional law", since government officials are public figures, paid by public, I do not see anything wrong with such law, in fact, I think that should be the case ine very country, if that is the case at all in Russia.
              It does not matter. It's gross violation of one's privacy. In normal countries you are being trusted to self-censor your expressions if you serve in any official capacity.
              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              3. Owners/share holders usually do not care for much more than return of profit, and they usually do not care from where profit comes, therefore my choice "sponsored", because more often than not, share holders are not the ones who promote articles and so on..., they allow influence of other agencies for profit (the only thing they care about).
              Oh yeah, they do. "who pays, calls the music"..
              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              4. CNN, BBC, Free Europe and so on, operate in Russia the same way, the law only requires transparency of founds, it does not censor anything..., so no, your claims have no ground. In fact, both CNN and BBC are on government list of media for questions towards spokesman, I am not sure if RT is on white house list, it was maybe few years ago, not sure about now. So please, if youa re not familiar with the topic, that is not topic of this thread to begin with, do not claim something non-factual when just a look at press-conference could prove your claim wrong.
              There is a difference in between having bureau and bunch of journalists in Russia and operating a conventional media channel in Russia. CNN, BBC and Free Europe do not have any public transmitter stations in Russia AFAIK. Thus, local populaces access to them is close to non-existing.

              BBC Russian Service is based in UK, CNN does not even have one(English/Arabian/Spanish), Free Europe/Radio Svoboda is based on Germany.

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              5. Example? You are presenting tons of claims without evidence, and that requires twice as much (or more) to show that those claims are non-factual, since you do not bother to support your claims with an example at all, I can't talk in such manner, it is enormous waste of my time, and I am not interested in that. If youa re meaning about laws in Latvia, Ukraine and some other countries where there's significant Russian minority, where by public law they forbid Russian schools, language etc., I am not sure how else you could define that other than "discrimination" and/or "russophobia".
              First, try to kindly explain me why should independent nation state fund public schooling in foreign language in the first place - whatever the minority happens to be. It's not being done anywhere else in the world but in some former Soviet satellite states. Do you see Russian public schools anywhere in New York (despite plenty of Russians living there) or Turkish public schools in Germany?

              It's injustice towards said state's taxpayer in the first case. For seconds, it also lowers the competitive edge of said minority itself because they are not going to get exposed to official language of the state at all. Which is what actually becomes the root cause of the discrimination. You do not want to hire someone who can't make himself or herself understandable to more than 10-20% of your clients or co-workers. Such people also stay poor and insular to the rest of society as a whole.

              I actually understand why Russian propaganda machine is hammering away on Russian public schools in "near-abroad" (Russian term). It's very useful to it to have discontent Russian minorities abroad. Less integrated and happy they are with their "location-country", easier it becomes to manipulate them according to Russian political goals. Incite riots, even war, hammer away on impression that Russia is surrounded by enemies, country x, y and z are nazis and russophobes, et cetera ad infinitum. External enemies, be them imagined or real help quell discontent in Russia itself.

              Assumption that "concern about Russian public schools in Latvia" is nothing but attempt to keep around handy political and propaganda tool, aligns well with the fact that public Russian schools were banned in Turkmenistan over a decade a go and there was not a single beep of "concern" in Russian media about it. Because all the natural resources Turkmenistan sold Russia were probably way more important to it. But about Baltic states, Russian media keeps trumpeting about it. I agree with forbidding them.

              Russian Federation itself has same practice. Autonomicstates in Russian Federation may have legally recognized another, native tongue but public schools always work using Russian with some hours of native language lessons thrown in per week.


              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              6. Yeah, i would like a list..., claims without evidence are something you (ab)used in this post a lot, and I can't discuss anything in such manner, sorry, I do not accept such conversations.
              oh well.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AMsRx2jjY
              "There are no Russian armed forced operating in Ukraine", ones who were catched by Ukrainians were always officially explained by Russia as being on "vacation" or recently discharged. Ammo, weapons and tech "local militias" were using were always explained as "captured from Ukrainians" - even if they logically would not have lasted single month with such and used modifications and types developed and used in Russia not in Ukraine. Public stance of Russian Government.
              I could go on endlessly on the topic of Ukraine. Now some Russian lies about Syria.

              Care about more? These are only war-related..

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              7. That's very debatable, the main point of it is, that they are required by law to register as such, because if they fail to do so, and do such "operations" they automatically get banned from the country (as they should) and fined.
              and such law is needed why in the first place? And why they should?

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              It's irelevant what you speak, tons of people speak my language at home, yet they despise me just for my ethnicity, nothing else. The reason why i said that, is that ex-USSR countries outside of Russia had it much worse in most cases, and there are multiple reasons for it. Since every government is corrupted (without exception), corrupted "local government" in some sort of Union, would abuse local population even more, since they are controlled by larger (federal) government that can steal without control, so naturally, they will steal more on "surface level", in that way, when they got in problems (with people living bad), they transfer their abuse to federal government (even tho, federal was not directly responsible for those things), and famous escuses kick in: "It's not us, they (federal) do not do X...".
              No it's not irrelevant because I am not native Russian speaker, I learned it much-much later. Thus, you cannot even accuse me of being russophobe, because I took up the effort without having any reason to. My wife is ethnic Russian who speaks my tongue as well as natives do - result of attending local kindergarden and native public school. If she had been in Russian-language public school - she would never have learned it as well, if at all.. Now she has very good competitive edge compared to natives when applying for work somewhere.)

              Despising someone because of ethnicity is something a Russian national in particular should not complain about at all. Because there is hardly any nation on Earth who could be more racist and intolerant toward other nations and races. For example: my Russian-minority colleagues have frankly expressed opinions that African refugees should be shot on Mediterranean by machinegun-fire or be put into concentration camps - and good riddance. They seriously HATE "black-asses" as they call them. It's not single or couple of individuals, it's more like majority. I simply dislike Muslims for what they represent, they do HATE. Add in derogatory terms Russian language contains and sense of superiority Russian has for people living in every single country around Russia - It's not nice. At the same time I know Russians who are nicest people you could wish to know.

              And I would despise myself Russian who assumes that being minority, he does not have to learn the language of the host-country - because he is Russian and everyone should be able to speak Russian. Bigots only deserve what they get.

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              The same is the case in EU for example, as it was in Soviet Union..., local government would use EU as an excuse for their actions, and you would get excuses such as: "We do not want, but EU requres bla bla...", even tho, it might be the case that EU (federal) government did not require that thing..., and so on. That's why most governments do not want the referendum on those things (yeah, you know, real democracy stuff...), while EU for their own reasons do not want referendums also, so people end up s***d twice, same as it was in USSR.
              It's more of a case of trying to goad out more money from EU than anything. Which does not apply to your example because USSR generally pumped out more money and resources from it's satellite states than it gave back. Check the records of Central Bank of USSR. They are surprisingly punctual, one could say "German-like precise".

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              What countries have free media arround Russia? Finland? Latvia? Sweden? Ukraine? Let's cover them all. Finland? No..., while they have relative narrative pushing by gov., they are in better position than other examples. Sweden? LOL, give me a break..., they are not even allowed to speak openly about their local topics, let alone something more important...,
              Estonia, Latvia, Norway, Poland, United States (Alaska is geographically not far off Russian Federation), Ukraine.

              Lithuania has blocked Russian channels in the past (not sure about present). I agree with you about Sweden (I've even seen official guide by SVT about how to handle 'bad' news involving immigrants/non-natives). Finland is not as bad as Sweden but it's has some form of self-censorship. (my father is Finn who emigrated from USSR) For example: when Estonians (most common foreigners there) do something bad, it's widely announced in media, including nationality, Finnish media even boldens it out.. Up to the point where (one particular case) Finnish man in car wearing Estonian license plates (avoiding car tax) caused an accident - media reported Estonian car causing an accident and omitted the nationality of the driver completely. In comparison: when Somalis do something, media is much more reserved. Good if they bother reporting age and sex of the miscreant. Certainly not the ethnicity.

              EU does not want referendums? What about Brits, they were not refused their Brexit. In fact, EU is powerless to actually interfere with internal politicking. In Soviet "member" state, you did what you were told by Moscow or you were simply being replaced by more pliant individual.

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              Latvia? Extreme anti-Russian narrative, since they are target of all those organizations because of their geographical position, they also have laws (same as next example) that forbid Russian language. Ukraine? I think i do not need to comment on country where government openly speaking about "killing Russians" in WW2 style with extremist Neo-Nazi ideology widespread in media and all social spheres, and same as Latvia, Russian press is banned by public law there, even worse laws and actual war at domestic population.
              It's Russian propaganda machine for the most part. Then again, would you agree that Russians in Russia have rights to speak Russian and other nationals should simply adapt and learn it if they wanted to live there?

              Same logic applies to other countries. In fact, there is less than two millions (?) Latvians, it's their sole home, Latvian language is designated as "language of the state" in their Constitution and if Russian minority does not like it, they can feel free to return to their Motherland. It was during Soviet-era when person was binded to one particular location and needed have special permit to move anywhere else. Sell your property and move off if you dislike it. Or adapt. You do not have to give up your language or culture.

              By the way, considering international laws about colonizing annexed territories, one could argue that Soviet-era colonists and their descendants are in Latvia illegally. Latvians allowed them stay after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It should be something you are grateful for. In some counties dissolution of USSR brought along plenty of Russian throats cut by natives (Azerbaijan for example). Now, EU is free area. You are free to move anywhere else, it's not like Russian is really tied to any one land. Russian language does not have word for "homeland", rodina means "land of birth".

              About Russian language being expressly forbidden. Did not notice it when I was visiting Latvia. I used it extensively because I do not speak Latvian. It's not forbidden by the best of my knowledge anywhere else around Russia either, except perhaps Belorussia where Lukashenka at some point started pressing on native tongue.

              Ukraine, check youtube videos filmed by Ukrainian troops. About half of them speak Russian among themselves, not Ukrainian. Some units seem like completely manned by ethnic Russian minority (battalion "Donbass" for example).

              Nazi and ww2 stuff.. Get over it for once. War ended 72 years a go and only entities drumming about nazis around Russia is Russian politicians, media, and/or outlets financed by Russian State (Sputnik for example). Nobody around Russia, except nutcases, few living veterans and history buffs think or care much about it. It's past. Rest of the world has moved on.

              It's ironic how Russia loves to call everyone else "fascist", seeing as Russia's justification for action in Crimea and the rest of Eastern Ukraine is the exact same as Nazi-Germany used for the Sudetenland. Seeing as fascism is defined as "reactionary authoritarian nationalism" typically brought about by a fear of decline and thus promoting romantic nationalism, ultra-masculinity and a vision of itself as anti-liberal, it seems Russia under Putin fills the neo-fascist criteria far more than ethnic Ukrainians who wave EU flags.
              - One of the comments I happened to see somewhere in the Net and seems to tell it all succintly.

              Ukraine and nazis. Lies of Russian propaganda. Try to follow bunch of nazi-Ukrainian accusation and you always end up finding the source is faked, itself Russian (Russia has biggest amount of neo-nazis in the world) or both. Like past "news" about Ukrainians "burning a little Russian boy on cross".

              I can understand that with the mass-murder campaign Lenin and Stalin conducted, Russian nation has very little left to be proud of and so Victory of WW2 has become the whole basis of national self-identification. Remove it from the formula and what have you got left?
              You murdered your Czar and his family, had country's intellligence killed off on purpose in war, GULAG camps and prisons, colossus-empire collapsed on it's own and suddenly you are poorer than anyone you fought against in the Great War. Japanese, Italians, Germans - all have way ahead in living standard. Bang, add inferiority complex on top. WW2 became ever more important to celebrate.

              Who is at fault? It's your own damn fault but since self-recrimination is against human nature, logically it's "U.S's fault", "damned West sabotaged" and so forth.

              And I'll tell you this. Only stagnant and declining states and empires look and celebrate the past. It's truth since Roman times. You may struggle and fight but eventually the thing is going to collapse because it's too corrupted from the inside. I just hope it does not come with nuclear war.

              Originally posted by leipero View Post
              I mean listen, I can debate you on these topics on 10 pages, as long as you don't use baseless claims i need to spend 10 minutes debunking, while you need 20 seconds to claim..., so, use examples after every claim (as I did in previous posts), and as long as forum members and moderators are ok with our discussion.
              Personally, I think this is not the place for such debate, but I did get annoyed by posters repeatedly claim things without any ground, so I felt urge to respond.
              well and good. I spent about a hour compiling this. In the end I stumbled on a site which would have helped me save a lot of time.http://www.russialies.com/russias-to...ional-edition/

              Comment


              • #77
                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                List involves critics of federal government, investigative journalists (anti-corruption, war crimes or loud critics), human rights activists, opposition politicians or any combination thereof. In one case it's oligarch who fell into disfavor and escaped Russia. I specifically did not list people who seemed to have died due to common crime, car accidents etc where it was unclear if the killing was intentional or just crime. Or the list would be twice-thrice as long. Foreign victims are briefly being commented on.
                Anna Politkovskaya, Boris Bereshovskiy, Paul Khlebnikov, Alexander Litvinenko, Natalya Estemirova, Anastasiya Baburova, Stanislav Markelov, Galina Starovoitova, Igor Domnivkov, Sergei Novikov, Iskandar Khatloni, Sergey Ivanov, Adap Tepsurgayev, Sergey Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Nikolai Girenko, Viktor Yushchenko (anti-Russian candidate in Ukraine, poisoned by lab-quality-pure dioxin), Andrei Kozlov, Daniel McGrory (British journalist who advertised aggressively Georgian indepencence from Russian influence and reported on Litvinenkos case, shot dead),Paul M. Joyal (friend of A. Litvinenko - along with McGrory, both were killed only days days before having to give statements in the killing of Litvinenko), Boris Nemtsov, Jan Travinsky, Magomed Varisov, Ivan Safronov, Vyacheslav Ifanov, Ilyas Shurpayev, Magomed Yevloyev, Vladislav Zakharchuk, Vyacheslav Yaroshenko, Konstantin Popov, Maxim Zuyev, Shamil Aliyev, Magomed Sultanmagomedov, Gadzhimurat Kamalov, Timur Kuashev, Yevgeny Khamaganov, Nikolay Andrushenko.

                Opposition politicians/activists jailed:
                In the hundreds. Too many to write down. Usually jailing campaign starts before election cycle or before big demonstration of some sort.
                Well, you named practically all "political opponents", most of whom died in other countries, not Russia. You probably copied some list of some article.., but, you are suggesting "guilty untill proven innocent" it seems, that's not how law works. I mean, suggesting that Putin (ordered) murder Boris Nemtsov, while he could barely get 1% of voting body, that's just ignorant to do. Same list can be (and is) made for US "oposition" figures..., as for jailed, again, same happens everywhere, so, there's really no argument here.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                It does not matter. It's gross violation of one's privacy. In normal countries you are being trusted to self-censor your expressions if you serve in any official capacity.

                Oh yeah, they do. "who pays, calls the music"..
                Well it matters, if you are public figure, who suposedly should work for "people", and youa re paid by tac payers, you can't expect privacy, it's not violation, you can choose to do private things, and you are not subject to those laws.

                In some cases, in some don't, since most companies (not only media) is hold by 51% of probably one share, and 49% of multiple others, so those 49% have no saying in it in reality, and those who have majority of shares, could care, but could also not care, but I see your point.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                There is a difference in between having bureau and bunch of journalists in Russia and operating a conventional media channel in Russia. CNN, BBC and Free Europe do not have any public transmitter stations in Russia AFAIK. Thus, local populaces access to them is close to non-existing.

                BBC Russian Service is based in UK, CNN does not even have one(English/Arabian/Spanish), Free Europe/Radio Svoboda is based on Germany.
                That is completely false, both CNN and BBC are freely broadcasted in Russia, it's their choice where they will be based, that fact by itself doesn't prove your claim, there are tons of news stations, radio stations and papers spewing all sorts of propaganda in Russia (similar to the list you presented and so on, that type of propaganda).

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                First, try to kindly explain me why should independent nation state fund public schooling in foreign language in the first place - whatever the minority happens to be. It's not being done anywhere else in the world but in some former Soviet satellite states. Do you see Russian public schools anywhere in New York (despite plenty of Russians living there) or Turkish public schools in Germany?

                It's injustice towards said state's taxpayer in the first case. For seconds, it also lowers the competitive edge of said minority itself because they are not going to get exposed to official language of the state at all. Which is what actually becomes the root cause of the discrimination. You do not want to hire someone who can't make himself or herself understandable to more than 10-20% of your clients or co-workers. Such people also stay poor and insular to the rest of society as a whole.

                I actually understand why Russian propaganda machine is hammering away on Russian public schools in "near-abroad" (Russian term). It's very useful to it to have discontent Russian minorities abroad. Less integrated and happy they are with their "location-country", easier it becomes to manipulate them according to Russian political goals. Incite riots, even war, hammer away on impression that Russia is surrounded by enemies, country x, y and z are nazis and russophobes, et cetera ad infinitum. External enemies, be them imagined or real help quell discontent in Russia itself.
                Assumption that "concern about Russian public schools in Latvia" is nothing but attempt to keep around handy political and propaganda tool, aligns well with the fact that public Russian schools were banned in Turkmenistan over a decade a go and there was not a single beep of "concern" in Russian media about it. Because all the natural resources Turkmenistan sold Russia were probably way more important to it. But about Baltic states, Russian media keeps trumpeting about it. I agree with forbidding them.

                Russian Federation itself has same practice. Autonomicstates in Russian Federation may have legally recognized another, native tongue but public schools always work using Russian with some hours of native language lessons thrown in per week.
                I don't know, I know that's a practise for most "independent" nations, including mine and Russian and most EU nations (see UK for example). It is something among the lines of preserving minorities culture and so on. Youa re asking me too much why that is the case, but it is. US have different practise, while you do not have Russian public schools I am aware of, I can only assume that you have some schools where you can choose Russian language in NY or any other state in US, and I do know for a fact, there's Spanish language in public schools, since significant part of US population is Spanish speaking natively. So, you can't aks "why tehre's no Russian....", because theya re not significant minority group, and not concentrated in specific geographical locations. Germany have very strict laws, but yeah I am quite positive you can recieve education on Turkish in Germany (even tho, Turks are at about 3 million, that is far below 10% margin).

                Well, for better or for worse, that's the law in most "civilized" nations, I have my own views on those topics, but it's besides the point.

                Well, it's not propaganda, it's public law of EU country, the same EU that is big "freedom fighter" and so on..., I am just pointing out at obvious hypocrisy.

                Russia have same practise as most states of EU, they garantee public education on native language for minorities, and they practise that law. Obviously, you have to learn Russian (or EU nation domestic language where you live) for finishing education.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                oh well.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AMsRx2jjY
                "There are no Russian armed forced operating in Ukraine", ones who were catched by Ukrainians were always officially explained by Russia as being on "vacation" or recently discharged. Ammo, weapons and tech "local militias" were using were always explained as "captured from Ukrainians" - even if they logically would not have lasted single month with such and used modifications and types developed and used in Russia not in Ukraine. Public stance of Russian Government.
                I could go on endlessly on the topic of Ukraine. Now some Russian lies about Syria.

                Care about more? These are only war-related..
                Russia never claimed there's no Russian army in Crimea, by agreement, there was at least 20 000 Russian soldiers on that teritory.
                Just because someone puts GPS coordinates in video description, that doesn't mean it is video from there, Ukranian propagandist pushed all sorts of nonsense at the time, and RT debunked it with video evidence, you don't actually need to go to RT for such thing, you only have need to read the comments, and I am sure that video could be found posted back in 2010.
                "эти танки принадлежат 136 отдельной мотострелковой бригаде,в.ч.63354 ( Буйнакск,Дагестан )"

                And you are giving me "VICE news" articles and suggesting I should take them seriously? lol

                It's also interesting how comments are disabled on that "proof" video.

                My point is very simple actually, Russia did involved in Crimea, took back it's teritory, and 0 people died, and that is all that matters, why Putin allowed this masacre in Eastern Ukraine is beyond me, he should have got directly involved and push out Ukranian army in 2-3 days, and far less people would die, and people in E.Ukraine would be free now. That's unforgivable he didn't do...

                There are people from my country and meny other countries who did go to E.Ukraine to help people fighting against fascistic government.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                and such law is needed why in the first place? And why they should?
                Because those are foreign agencies? With their own interests theya re attempting to push towards domestic population? No?

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                No it's not irrelevant because I am not native Russian speaker, I learned it much-much later. Thus, you cannot even accuse me of being russophobe, because I took up the effort without having any reason to. My wife is ethnic Russian who speaks my tongue as well as natives do - result of attending local kindergarden and native public school. If she had been in Russian-language public school - she would never have learned it as well, if at all.. Now she has very good competitive edge compared to natives when applying for work somewhere.)

                Despising someone because of ethnicity is something a Russian national in particular should not complain about at all. Because there is hardly any nation on Earth who could be more racist and intolerant toward other nations and races. For example: my Russian-minority colleagues have frankly expressed opinions that African refugees should be shot on Mediterranean by machinegun-fire or be put into concentration camps - and good riddance. They seriously HATE "black-asses" as they call them. It's not single or couple of individuals, it's more like majority. I simply dislike Muslims for what they represent, they do HATE. Add in derogatory terms Russian language contains and sense of superiority Russian has for people living in every single country around Russia - It's not nice. At the same time I know Russians who are nicest people you could wish to know.

                And I would despise myself Russian who assumes that being minority, he does not have to learn the language of the host-country - because he is Russian and everyone should be able to speak Russian. Bigots only deserve what they get.
                So you had a reason, your wife is Russian = enough reason for me to learn any native language, if from nothing else, then curiosity and easer communication with my new relatives.

                Well I am not Russian (again), and that can't be further from teh truth to be honest, there are all sorts of people in every ethnic groups, and I am not going to discuss that here. Most people in Russia, simply don't care, I know that for a fact, most hateful "nationalism" is usually present in new nations who lack their own identity, so they need to base their identity on something, and it is usually based on hate towards nation where they roots belong, so all Ukranian "nationalists" are understandable, sinde the name says "Ukraina", it was never a real nation with real identity, it was always a mix of Russian and Polish people (and some others). It's something similar to "identity complex".

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                It's more of a case of trying to goad out more money from EU than anything. Which does not apply to your example because USSR generally pumped out more money and resources from it's satellite states than it gave back. Check the records of Central Bank of USSR. They are surprisingly punctual, one could say "German-like precise".
                You are seriously thinking that EU nations benefit from EU? Damn..., my analogy applies to teh letter to the Soviet Union, and EU will finish in the exact same way. For taht matter, EU is much worse than USSR, because USSR took part of Germany due to the fact Germany (and Axis powers) attacked Russia and was defeated. US/EU attacks countries that never even treaten them, destroys tehir industries (either via bombs or "economic hitmans"), and then buy ruins for rock-bottom prices and exploits population and resources.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                Estonia, Latvia, Norway, Poland, United States (Alaska is geographically not far off Russian Federation), Ukraine.

                Lithuania has blocked Russian channels in the past (not sure about present). I agree with you about Sweden (I've even seen official guide by SVT about how to handle 'bad' news involving immigrants/non-natives). Finland is not as bad as Sweden but it's has some form of self-censorship. (my father is Finn who emigrated from USSR) For example: when Estonians (most common foreigners there) do something bad, it's widely announced in media, including nationality, Finnish media even boldens it out.. Up to the point where (one particular case) Finnish man in car wearing Estonian license plates (avoiding car tax) caused an accident - media reported Estonian car causing an accident and omitted the nationality of the driver completely. In comparison: when Somalis do something, media is much more reserved. Good if they bother reporting age and sex of the miscreant. Certainly not the ethnicity.

                EU does not want referendums? What about Brits, they were not refused their Brexit. In fact, EU is powerless to actually interfere with internal politicking. In Soviet "member" state, you did what you were told by Moscow or you were simply being replaced by more pliant individual.
                You must be delusional if you think Ukraine have free media..., I'm sorry, but you can't be serious? RT is banned (banned!) from Ukraine, and most (if not all) Russian media, you may call that "free media", but that is on you..., the amount of brainwashing spewed on their media is astonishing, it's like I'm watching replay from my country back in 2001-2004, exact same tactic, exact same narrative, it's almost like it is created by "organizations that shall not be named", oh wait, it is..., the same person who created (criminal) "revolution" here did that shamelesly again in Ukraine, and as I said before, to my shame, he belongs to the same ethnic group as me.

                UK, France and Germany are countries that could be allowed to have referendum when that's in interest of those countries, that doesn't mean any other country have that right. Go organize referendum in Ukraine now? No, it cannot happen, especially if majority of population is against it.

                UK on the otehr hand could be just a miscalculation of those on powers (I doubt, but it could be), if they really didn't wanted to leave EU, if they did think that people might vote for it, that referendum would never happen.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                It's Russian propaganda machine for the most part. Then again, would you agree that Russians in Russia have rights to speak Russian and other nationals should simply adapt and learn it if they wanted to live there?

                Same logic applies to other countries. In fact, there is less than two millions (?) Latvians, it's their sole home, Latvian language is designated as "language of the state" in their Constitution and if Russian minority does not like it, they can feel free to return to their Motherland. It was during Soviet-era when person was binded to one particular location and needed have special permit to move anywhere else. Sell your property and move off if you dislike it. Or adapt. You do not have to give up your language or culture.

                By the way, considering international laws about colonizing annexed territories, one could argue that Soviet-era colonists and their descendants are in Latvia illegally. Latvians allowed them stay after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It should be something you are grateful for. In some counties dissolution of USSR brought along plenty of Russian throats cut by natives (Azerbaijan for example). Now, EU is free area. You are free to move anywhere else, it's not like Russian is really tied to any one land. Russian language does not have word for "homeland", rodina means "land of birth".

                About Russian language being expressly forbidden. Did not notice it when I was visiting Latvia. I used it extensively because I do not speak Latvian. It's not forbidden by the best of my knowledge anywhere else around Russia either, except perhaps Belorussia where Lukashenka at some point started pressing on native tongue.

                Ukraine, check youtube videos filmed by Ukrainian troops. About half of them speak Russian among themselves, not Ukrainian. Some units seem like completely manned by ethnic Russian minority (battalion "Donbass" for example).

                Nazi and ww2 stuff.. Get over it for once. War ended 72 years a go and only entities drumming about nazis around Russia is Russian politicians, media, and/or outlets financed by Russian State (Sputnik for example). Nobody around Russia, except nutcases, few living veterans and history buffs think or care much about it. It's past. Rest of the world has moved on.
                Those are your personal viewes, it is far away from any propaganda (it's actual fact, written in public law), again, I will not get into discussiona bout personal viewes on those topics.

                If Latvia was a country when they moved there that would be the case, however, Latvia is relatively new invention, much newer than US for example that is also very young country, borders are artificial lines, there's no dispute about it, they are drawn in unjust ways most of the time, and there's no argument against it. What does that suggest is, that Latvia borders are drawed unjustly (same as any other country, including Russia). How did US got Texas for example? Or how did US even became a country? Ofc. that can't be just, and I am not sure if you can point at single location on this planet where you can claim "This was just".

                Well, you are wrong, It's not only Russians "drumming" about Nazis, maybe that is not the case in your place, but still, USSR did ended 25+ years ago, yet, you are still "drumming" about it, and not only you, tho crimes of USSR and Nazis are not even in the same universe, let alone scale, yet tehre are people comparing those two..., there are people who witha straight face are able to claim that 10 years of peaceful time in USSR claimed twice as much lifes than 4+ years of constant war. For any logical and sane person, that would be laughing matter..., however, now, due to teh comback of Nazi ideology and extremely poor education, most people in "civilized world" would believe such nonsense.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                - One of the comments I happened to see somewhere in the Net and seems to tell it all succintly.

                Ukraine and nazis. Lies of Russian propaganda. Try to follow bunch of nazi-Ukrainian accusation and you always end up finding the source is faked, itself Russian (Russia has biggest amount of neo-nazis in the world) or both. Like past "news" about Ukrainians "burning a little Russian boy on cross".

                I can understand that with the mass-murder campaign Lenin and Stalin conducted, Russian nation has very little left to be proud of and so Victory of WW2 has become the whole basis of national self-identification. Remove it from the formula and what have you got left?
                You murdered your Czar and his family, had country's intellligence killed off on purpose in war, GULAG camps and prisons, colossus-empire collapsed on it's own and suddenly you are poorer than anyone you fought against in the Great War. Japanese, Italians, Germans - all have way ahead in living standard. Bang, add inferiority complex on top. WW2 became ever more important to celebrate.

                Who is at fault? It's your own damn fault but since self-recrimination is against human nature, logically it's "U.S's fault", "damned West sabotaged" and so forth.

                And I'll tell you this. Only stagnant and declining states and empires look and celebrate the past. It's truth since Roman times. You may struggle and fight but eventually the thing is going to collapse because it's too corrupted from the inside. I just hope it does not come with nuclear war.
                40 people are burned alive in Odessa while policeman shooting at those on window who tried to get air, just one example.

                I think i have to repeat for N-th time I am not a Russian. What you posted here is self-projection and demagogy of someone who wrote that. Let's dive into it.

                WW2 in general have been won by Russians, that's just an historical fact, over 80% of Axis powers (not only Germany) is used on Eastern Front. Russians paid huge sacrifice for that freedom, they should be proud for it. It was common "peasant" against well trained soldier, people who in jsut 2 years learned to fight against their will (they were attacked), and started to defeat the enemy.

                People murdering self-proclaimed authorities is actually a good thing, that jsut speaks about mentality of those people (in positive ways ofc.). As for Russians being poorer than any of those who were on Axis side, well, I actually already demonstrated why that isn't the case.., but, even if that was the case in material way, that would suggest that person who posted that comment is very poor person, intelectually, and probably in life (in non material ways).

                Last two paragraphs are pure self-projection I have no comment for.

                Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                well and good. I spent about a hour compiling this. In the end I stumbled on a site which would have helped me save a lot of time.http://www.russialies.com/russias-to...ional-edition/
                Well you spent 1 hour of ingoring the principle, and relating to irrelevant things. As for that websirte, I am not going to waste reading lists that have no relation to the truth, I saw it all long time ago, I am familiar with tactics and mechanisms how propaganda works... jsut at lie #242:
                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                That is example of something called "strawman" argument, you create elaborate lie: "You claimed X, but it is Y", ignoring the fact that I never claimed X to begin with, than constructing your counter-argument on the basis I claimed X, even tho I never did that. So, I am not going to waste my time on such "arguments".


                But let me tell you something, same as my grandmother told to me while I loved toa rgue with her when i was very young on those topics, see, she told me this: "One day, i hope not, you will see that that I was right, and you will remmember this conversation at that point".

                See, I remmember that conversation, and she was right. I was in similar mind-state you are now, and I know exactly what will happen in Ukraine, even in Latvia and so on. But i will tell you this, you will probably put yourself on the wrong side (again), and you will lose, not because you are weaker, inferior etc., but because you are wrong. I hope that never happens, but all chances are it will.

                Axis power lost because they were wrong, Soviet Union colapsed because they were wrong, Roman Empire colapsed for the same reason, if you think for a second that will avoid current system (you obviously praise), well, you know what will happen.

                Comment


                • #78
                  I don't actually bother pointing and responding all the quotes.

                  -I learned Russian way before I met my wife. About 7y earlier.
                  -T90's in the videos are not in the Crimean Peninsula but in Donbas/Lugansk region. Which is precisely where "Russian army has never been". IF you'd bother to search you would also see other shit like T-72B3's, BTR mod's Ukrainians have never had, electronic warfare and radar stations and so forth. Endless list of tech Ukrainians have never had but somehow supposed "rebels" are using. To suppose that such tech could be stolen from Russia and be operated by former car washers, drunkards and criminals is pretty stupid. They are operated by regular troops carted off from Russia to Ukraine. Some masquerade as rebels, plenty are wearing official Russian insignia. You just won't see them in official Russian channels. Search youtube for vk.com pictures or cell phone videos compilations. You'd even notice some white "humanitarian aid" trucks being unloaded - ammonition.

                  Of course you won't bother actually checking the links I've provided. It's nothing surprising.

                  -People killed in Russia.. Nemtsov was shot by hitman next to Kremlin WHILE being 24/7 under surveillance by FSB. Probability that hitman just happened to be there at the same time, recognized the random appropriate location and did the deed is non-existing. It had to include previous surveillance by the killer and to have been carefully orchestrated. To think that FSB is that incompetent that it cannot notice another party conducting identical surveillance is also stupid. FSB is anything else than incompetent. Thus conclusion - hit was sanctioned officially and it was probably NOT even being done by Chechen Russian authorities hunted down. You should try shooting target from moving car using a semiautomatic pistol. It needs plenty of skill Islamics generally lack. And did the car drove itself? Why was he murdered just days before he was supposedly presenting an evidence of Russian troops fighting in Ukraine..? "official story" stinks to high heaven.

                  -Why something collapses.. Had Axis powers won, they would have been collapsed by now like USSR did. Internal characteristics of the both systems were identical.

                  I personally quit here, won't answer nor read any replies.

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by aht0 View Post
                    I don't actually bother pointing and responding all the quotes.

                    -I learned Russian way before I met my wife. About 7y earlier.
                    -T90's in the videos are not in the Crimean Peninsula but in Donbas/Lugansk region. Which is precisely where "Russian army has never been". IF you'd bother to search you would also see other shit like T-72B3's, BTR mod's Ukrainians have never had, electronic warfare and radar stations and so forth. Endless list of tech Ukrainians have never had but somehow supposed "rebels" are using. To suppose that such tech could be stolen from Russia and be operated by former car washers, drunkards and criminals is pretty stupid. They are operated by regular troops carted off from Russia to Ukraine. Some masquerade as rebels, plenty are wearing official Russian insignia. You just won't see them in official Russian channels. Search youtube for vk.com pictures or cell phone videos compilations. You'd even notice some white "humanitarian aid" trucks being unloaded - ammonition.

                    Of course you won't bother actually checking the links I've provided. It's nothing surprising.

                    -People killed in Russia.. Nemtsov was shot by hitman next to Kremlin WHILE being 24/7 under surveillance by FSB. Probability that hitman just happened to be there at the same time, recognized the random appropriate location and did the deed is non-existing. It had to include previous surveillance by the killer and to have been carefully orchestrated. To think that FSB is that incompetent that it cannot notice another party conducting identical surveillance is also stupid. FSB is anything else than incompetent. Thus conclusion - hit was sanctioned officially and it was probably NOT even being done by Chechen Russian authorities hunted down. You should try shooting target from moving car using a semiautomatic pistol. It needs plenty of skill Islamics generally lack. And did the car drove itself? Why was he murdered just days before he was supposedly presenting an evidence of Russian troops fighting in Ukraine..? "official story" stinks to high heaven.

                    -Why something collapses.. Had Axis powers won, they would have been collapsed by now like USSR did. Internal characteristics of the both systems were identical.

                    I personally quit here, won't answer nor read any replies.
                    Yeah, was about to say the same thing..., we should stop bumping this thread and contine conversation via PM's, it also became tiresome to do this.

                    OK, let's assume you are completely right, and T-90 was in Ukraine (there's no conclusive evidence, videos in feilds could be shot anywhere, and as commenters pointed out...). Ofc. I will not bother, becouse i saw all of that way back..., I did checked links, for example, that "VICE News" link you posted had dislike button pressed still saved from back in 2014 when I watched it. But let's assume that\s all true, Russia sent some small artilery to help "rabels" (people living in those area attacked by illegal neo-nazi government), and Russian government lied, it's all true now for the sake of argument.

                    Now, why I generally do not bother with those irrelevant things, is because things have to be looked at from different perspective. What actually happened in Ukraine? Yanakovich government refused to sign EU deal (not actually refused, but freezed) that would de-facto colonize Ukraine and ruin it's industry, what happened next? EU got mad because they couldn't milk money and resources out of Ukraine as planned, deal was signed between some of EU officials and Yanakovich government, agreement was done, Germany, France, Russia and some other countries were garants for that agreement, the very next day, when Winter Olympics were starting in Sochi, armed militias (not protesters) did a overtrow of government with a gun, entered news station and even killed people (famous "Yanakovich snipers"), that was at best 1000 people (plus max 100 000 protesters to make a noise), then (mainly Russian) people in Crimea reacted to that, declared independence via referendum, and similar thing happened in E.Ukraine. So, who broke a deal? And, even if we assume there was 100 000 protesters and MAXIMUM 1000 armed militia (from right sector), does that consist more than 50% of Ukranian population? Is that real democracy? Somehow, that new "regime" was legitimate in the eyes of EU, yet referendum on Crimea is illegitimate (despite the fact that well over 90% of people was for it).

                    Now, if you try to explain me how Russians are wrong in here..., don't bother, let's assume they are wrong, let's assume that Russian government did sent military in brigades and 100 000's, let assume they deployed even aircrafts, let's assume that "rabbels" are all Russian spies, now tell me, how did Ukranian barely functional army, with people unwilling to fight, managed to survive more than 24h? When in Georgia, with US armed and supported forces (in far better conditions, and with much more will to fight) got overrun in few days by 1 (with letters ONE!) Russian batalon without airforce? Logic doesn't compute here.

                    And even if all that is the case, how is that worse than 200 000 (according to some estimates up to 1 million) killed Iraqi civillians on basis of "Sadam had weapons of mass destructions"? And even worse, usage of forbiden weapons with DE (depleted uranium) that degraded middle eastern population for centuries to come? Where are the sanctions for the US? Where's world outrage (besides well over 40% of US population that was against the war at that time)? And that wasn't reaction toa nything Russia (or anyome else for that matter) did, it was pure agression.

                    Just because EU takes unethical/highly immoral stands, and cowardly supports the man with a gun in the room, that doesn't make it right.

                    My point here was that Axis couldn't win the war, because majority of population was against it (maybe even in Germany itself, my grandfather from teh otehr bloodline was German who refused to kill civilians and got killed by Nazis for disobeying order, with my uncle have to escape here then moved to NA).

                    OK, you don't need to read, it's good if we stop bumping this thread with off-topic things.

                    On topic, I don't know if that guy is guilty or not, personally I do not believe he's guilty, but I could be wrong.

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                      Good to know Russia isn't any better than USA when comes to users freedom.
                      I'm not so sure. Russia sure is better for one Mr. Snowden.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X