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Fedora 25 Officially Released & I Highly Recommend It

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  • #71
    Originally posted by pal666 View Post
    virtual box is not open source. it requires proprietary addon for basic functionality
    i will ignore rest of your whine
    If it's not open source, how am I able to look at it's source code?

    Do you also want to say that Wikipedia is wrong?

    Comment


    • #72
      Originally posted by cl333r View Post

      It's typical Linux experience. When you say something needs to be fixed it gets ridiculed, if Linus Torvalds says it, the Linux community suddenly accepts it as self evident. Case in point - password protected printers, they said it's for "security reasons", when Linus blamed them they took the passwords away:

      "Whoever moron thought that it's "good security" to require the root password for everyday things like this is mentally diseased." [1]

      But if you said something like that, you get ridiculed.

      [1]
      Note:  This blog post outlines upcoming changes to Google Currents for Workspace users. For information on the previous deprecation of Googl...
      Eh, there is a BIG difference between "A" password, and "THE ROOT" password. And yes, it is actually SAFER to have NO password for day to day operations, than to give EVERYBODY **THE ROOT** password. At least with the no-password option, critical things are still protected by the root password. With the root password option, NOTHING is protected, because regular everyday morons who have no concept of security will give out the password.

      Now if they COMPLETELY took the passwords away, then that would be a really stupid move (though at least now it will be clear that there is no security on it at all, when previously, it would give stupid people the mistaken impression that there was security), but if they actually understood his words and just separated "everyday" stuff from "admin" stuff and made it so the password only applied to the latter, then that is a clear improvement.

      Comment


      • #73
        Originally posted by zoomblab View Post
        • They are dictating our needs when they remove functionalities that we all have been using 30 years now like the buttons for minimize and the shudown, like the desktop taskbar, etc. and when they get buged about this stuff they yell back "No no no you don't need all that stuff. You think you need them, but we say you don't. Because we know better than you and the rest of the world.".
        Oh my god, I can't believe that they took away the 5.25 inch floppy drive!!!! Those evil dictators!!!! Now how am I supposed to open all my ascii-art-porn?

        Comment


        • #74
          Note: I'm not particularly fond of Gnome3. Personally, I prefer MATE.

          Comment


          • #75
            Have been using Gnome on Wayland since Fedora 23 till now (no intention to upgrade) and the minor bugs, while annoying, weren't showstopping. I don't expect Fedora 25 to be any worse.

            Too bad Plasma on Wayland in F23 is broken. Anyone trying out Plasma on Wayland in F25 (if it's an option)?

            Comment


            • #76
              Originally posted by AdamW View Post

              Sorry for the unexpected experiences. As a general note here: most of what you say (in fact pretty much all of it) isn't particularly specific to Fedora. A lot of it is specific to GNOME, and some of it is kinda general to all traditional Linux distributions.

              I don't do any testing with VB myself (I use KVM), but I suspect the window resize issue is related to wayland; virt-manager has a similar issue. That's the kind of stuff that we're kinda expecting to see in the early days of Wayland.

              The button at the top-left is not in fact a 'Next' button, it's a 'Done' button. The installer design is that you start at a 'hub', go out to various 'spokes', and return from them to the hub; when you complete a spoke you're not stepping through a linear wizard, it's more like the Super Mario World overmap or something. =) The button placement is something that comes up quite often, I think there was some talk about moving it but I'm not sure where it stands right now.

              I don't think it's really fair to suggest that the default location services setting is trying to 'trick' anyone, when it's unavoidably presented to you in a very prominent fashion. It's also worth understanding that this stuff is quite embryonic on the Linux desktop at this point. I'd have to double check the code to be sure, but I think the GNOME 'location services' thing only provides IP-based geolocation and GPS location if the system has a supported GPS device (which most things you're going to run GNOME on won't). I don't think there's any wifi-based location stuff going on. Given how Linux distros currently work, any app could do IP geolocation on its own quite trivially anyway; there's no mechanism (in Fedora or any other) to actually *prevent* apps doing this. So the control only really has limited significance in the first place, especially if your system doesn't do GPS.

              The same kinda applies to webcam access: traditional Linux distros just aren't built like a cellphone OS where app access to hardware is heavily mediated by the system layer. Pretty much any app can access the webcam, and the way things are right now, GNOME can't really intermediate itself as an authority deciding whether or not apps can do that.

              And again with microphone access; you *could* build an input mute switch and present it as a privacy control, but I think at present again pretty much any app could actually just access the mixer and change the setting back again.

              Basically what I'm saying is that, AIUI at least, there would have to be a lot of work done at levels below the UI in order to provide location, webcam and mic 'privacy' controls that are truly meaningful, which hasn't been done yet for Fedora or any other distro I'm aware of. (Well, I'm not sure about explicitly privacy-focused ones like Tails, I haven't looked into those much.) I can't make a meaningful comparison with Windows or macOS here either as I don't know whether they can really prevent regular applications from adjusting the mic input level or doing IP geolocation.

              The GNOME 'Online Accounts' feature is actually really awesome. It's done at the desktop level because it allows many apps to do useful stuff with the accounts. For instance, if you set up a Google account, Evolution will get your Google mail, contacts, calendar and tasks, Photos will get photos from your Google account (I think, anyhow) and documents from your Google Drive account will show up in Documents. That's the kind of integration it's aimed at providing. When I used ownCloud it was really neat to enter my ownCloud account settings and get my contacts and calendar showing up in Evolution and my files in Nautilus right away.

              Yes, in the standard GNOME 3 design, there really isn't a 'desktop'. It's just not made to work that way. When running under X it's possible to enable some basic desktop interaction - this was added into a release somewhere in the middle of the GNOME 3 series in response to requests - but this is not possible under Wayland because of technical details of the way it's implemented not being compatible with Wayland. It's just kinda not how you're meant to interact with GNOME 3. The primary way to interact with GNOME 3 is intended to be the Overview (the thing you get when you hit the Start key or click Activities).

              The minimize button is, again, a GNOME 3 thing; in stock GNOME 3 there is no minimize button on standard windows. The cited reason for this is that minimization is really not fundamentally necessary to efficient use: you can switch between windows via the overview or alt-tab. There is a commonly-used extension which adds minimize buttons, if you still want them. It sounds in general like you're one of the folks who'd be happier with several widely-used GNOME extensions enabled; if you Google around a bit, there are quite a lot of blogs etc. where people discuss their preferred extensions. You can browse and install extensions at https://extensions.gnome.org/ .

              You can change the units for the weather app from its menu. If you look in the top panel right next to Activities you'll see a menu for the currently-active app; when Weather is selected you'll see 'Weather' there. Click it, and you get a menu. Click 'Temperature unit' and change it to Celsius. Most GNOME apps put their settings in this menu.

              The buttons in the 'power menu' use icons that I thought are pretty universal...the one in question shows the 'power' icon by default - when clicked, it will display a 'Cancel / Restart / Poweroff' dialog and power off if you do nothing for 60 seconds - and if you hold down Alt, it turns into (yes) a 'Pause' icon, which means 'suspend' (not power off). This again is standard GNOME 3 stuff.

              To sum up - if you were to install the GNOME version of any other distribution, say openSUSE for example, you'd see pretty much all the same stuff you saw with Fedora. Sorry you had some troubles, though! You might be interested to try a different Fedora spin, e.g. the KDE spin: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/en/kde - I suspect it might be a bit more up your alley (though the privacy stuff would still be valid there, I believe). Thanks for the feedback!
              OMG!, sir you definitely deserve some beers or bottles of your prefered beverage.
              This is the most complete, well thought, kind and well explained answer I have ever seen here.
              Congratulations!
              It would've been nice if this forum had some kind of system to reward users for great post, something like stackoverflow has for answers.
              I expected users coming at me and shouting that it's my fault, I'm the one to blame for being stupid and not knowing how to use their favourite distro or DE and I got this.
              Big Thank you!

              I tested it with VirtualBox for two reasons:
              1: I didn't have nearby my laptop, which I use for live testing distros
              2: I wanted to see how good the Wayland implementation is in VB, if it boots up at least
              I remember testing in the past Rebecca Black OS for Wailand testing and didn't work at all in VB
              Anyway, maybe I should've mentioned, this was a small issue, it was mostly for curiosity
              Still I expected Fedora like some of the other distributions to have been tested to work ok in VB
              I don't remember exactly but I think Gparted advertises that it is tested in VB too, maibe Ubuntu MATE too, but I'm not sure.

              About the "Next" button being a "Done" button, I didn't write my review immediately tell verbatim how the button was called.
              For me a 'Next', 'Done', 'Ok', 'Got it', 'All right' almost have the same meaning, kind of 'I finished here and I want the next/other thing you have to ask me'.
              Now that you stress there's a difference between them I think I understand that that you mean there's no 'Next' as in 'Previous->Next' relation
              After reading that the installer design is that you start at a 'hub', go out to various 'spokes' and me getting a mental picture of a bicycle starting in the middle, now it makes much more sense.
              Unfortunately I can't find any example where this is efficient or more efficient than the traditional, linear way.
              Taking a bicycle wheel, no matter how close the tips of the spokes are you still have to travel two spokes length if you want to go from the tip op one to the tip of the neighboring one.
              Taking a hotel where if you want to go from your room to your neighbor's room you have to go downstairs the starting point, the entance and then climb back upstairs to the neighbor's door
              Taking a bus or train car going from one seat to the next one would mean to get off of it and then get back on it.
              A thing like this is doable and a robot probably would do it, but what if you have 5 spokes or 10?
              People might say that this doesn't apply to sofware, but I think it does.
              If I have to read 5 pages (spokes) and for each of them I have to scrollup all the way to the top, visually at least, I think I lose serious time on a stupid thing.
              I, for example I had trouble finding the button because I didn't expect to see a button with an action before reading the question or the info
              I wonder if a yes/no pop-pup question shows in Gnome does the Yes/No buttons come first and then the question?

              About trying to trick, I think I was talking about the linking with online accouns(Google,Facebook,etc) which I never do to be sure that I avoid my computer being tracked by these.
              I remember the button was again at the top, but very hard too see, unlike 'Done' which had a color, this one it was something similar to a greyed out button almost blending with background, if I remember well.
              I remember that when I tried Windows 10 in VB they asked me to make an online account and I had to look very carefully for a minute or two until I found a small 'Skip' button.
              This for me looks like trying to cheat the user in any OS, but I haven't ever seen something like this in any Linux distro
              Maybe because other don't have this kind of integration with online services.
              Maybe I'm watching too much for this and I'm find this suspicios and it was just a coincidence.
              I remember reading a few years back about the "Power of the default" and how some companies use this to trick user into accepting a lot of options by turning them on by defaul and letting the user to turn them off, if he's aware of that, which most of them are not.
              Google is doing this shit every day with Android smarthones.
              I found after more than 1 year that the default options are to steal my contacs and pictures from my phone with the pretext that they are backing them up.
              Huge invasion of privacy in my opinion.
              If you use something from them you have to manually opt-out on a lot of things.

              If the app access to hardware is not heavily mediated by the system layer how can a system can be called secure?
              Isn't this one of the purposes of an OS, to control the apps running on it?
              Or Fedora is not marketing something like that?
              For me security means 2 things:
              1: Having the power to observe:
              - What programs are running
              - Which of them are scheduled to run on startup or in the future
              - Which are allowed through Firewall
              - Which ports are open and by who?
              _What hardware can the programs access/read: hard disk, optical disks, webcam, mike, keyboard, networ
              2: Having the power to set boundaries:
              - On pretty much everything of what can be observed

              Unfortunately I haven't seen what I'm asking in any OS, Linux or Windows, even though people are bragging that Linux is more secure, for me without these, this statement looks like a joke.
              When it comes power to observe, I think Windows is getting really close with it's firewall popping up to as a program through firewall and with the proprietary firewall Glasswire that I have installed myself.

              Your explanation and examples of Online Accounts makes good sense.

              In the standard GNOME 3 design, there really isn't a 'desktop'?
              This is a huge deal-breaker for me
              Why shoud I waste so much space with nothing and be forced to go through a narrow door for everything?
              This makes no sense for me whatsoever
              I'm used to put a lot of stuff, folders, files, shorcuts on my desktop, and I've done this in every desktop I know, Windows, Linux, Android.
              This is a huge deal-breaker for me and a guarantee that I will never use it.
              Even when I was working as a web developer I had symlinks on my desktop to fast open a lot of configuration files for different serves, folders, projects, temporary stuff, etc.
              I don't want to lose time to browse the computer for frequently used files.

              The primary way to interact with GNOME 3 is intended to be the Overview (the thing you get when you hit the Start key or click Activities)
              Don't know what to say about that, I don't like be forced to do a thing only one way.
              For me hiding everything and forcing to click a button that loads a huge menu, the loading seem slow, may it was because of being virtualized.
              Then waiting for the icons to load and then waiting for the image to reach the retina and the the brain to process it seems pretty slow and all this process would've been faster if the icons were on the desktop from the beginning.
              My opinion is that more clicks to do a thing means worse design. This seems like it.

              No minimize button is really baffling.
              I never thought someone will invet such a stupid thing, sorry I don't want to offend anyone, but this is my sincere reaction.
              I an switch between windows via the overview or alt-tab?
              What if I want to minimize all?, alt-tab I assume will always bring one to foreground...
              For example I want 5 running programs, but none of them showing up, I want to see only the backgroun, the 'desktop'?
              Or maybe just 1, like a music player, which of course I want it minimized, there's no nee to constantly look at it, only to listen.

              "It sounds in general like you're one of the folks who'd be happier with several widely-used GNOME extensions enabled"
              Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm actually one of the guys who gives up very easily on things that I don't like.
              I like to take an OS that is 80-90% of what I like and then customize it from there to my liking.
              I don't like to take something like Gnome which is only 3% percent of what I like and then install tens of extensions to customize it to my liking, if that's even possible.
              It's too much wasted time for little gain and I will have to repeat this process agin if I reinstall the distro or install it on another computer
              I'm not one of the guys that Install Windows 10 for example to for games and then install 10 privacy protecting apps like "Shutup10" an the like.
              I just give up immediately and spend the time in finding something that I like.

              Thanks for explaining me how to switch to my temperature unit, unfortunately this is too late now, I gave up.
              Having the setting in the pannel seems very counter-intuitive for me, but I think that I saw this before in one of the versions of Ubuntu which I skipped, trying to copy Mac or whichever OS.
              While this might have some logic with putting the menu always in the same place, I don't like it because it's confusing.
              I always have check first which app is active to know whose menu it is.
              And O course I assume the menu is hidden until I click on an app to make it active, which is wasted time.
              I really don't like all these "click here if you want to see it", "click here if you want to see it"
              I want to see everything from the beginning.

              About the power buttons I think I logged out first and the I opened the same menu and pressed something that looked like "||" (if I remember correctly and the the virtual machine closed very fast.
              I stayed a while with the mouse cursor over it to see if it displays a tooltip like on Windows with a short expanation of what it does but it didn't displayed anything.
              I assume in Gnome all the users understand perfectly what the graphic designer meant with every icon and they don't need tooltips and no text explaining them.
              Maybe I was wrong and it was a suspend button and the machine just entered suspend state and didn't turned off.
              I should've checked Virtualbox main window and looked at state.
              It's my fault, but if there were some text or tooltip explaining exactly what it does, I don't think I would've made this mistake
              I don't remember seeing suspend working ok on my laptop and I didn't expect to work ok in VB.

              Anyway this was my awful experience with Gnome3, thanks for clearing this out too.
              You sir, helped me a lot to understand some of the thing that I find weird
              I think you should write them on a wiki or something more puplic to be easier to find by people who want to use this desktop environment.
              I think you explain very well.
              Thanks for suggesting KDE, i like it (along with MATE and Cinnamon) and I will stay with one of them and I'm sure I'm never going to try Gnome3 again or recommend it to anyone.

              Comment


              • #77
                I've tested this operating system and I can say it is amazing. wayland works perectly till now (if it is really enabled and worlable onthe different softwares). However one of the big lack concerns with the missing of H264 CODEC. How is it possible? The unicque operating system missing h264 both firefox and chromium

                Comment


                • #78
                  Originally posted by Danny3 View Post
                  In the standard GNOME 3 design, there really isn't a 'desktop'?
                  This is a huge deal-breaker for me
                  Why shoud I waste so much space with nothing and be forced to go through a narrow door for everything?
                  This makes no sense for me whatsoever
                  I'm used to put a lot of stuff, folders, files, shorcuts on my desktop, and I've done this in every desktop I know, Windows, Linux, Android.
                  This is a huge deal-breaker for me and a guarantee that I will never use it.
                  Even when I was working as a web developer I had symlinks on my desktop to fast open a lot of configuration files for different serves, folders, projects, temporary stuff, etc.
                  I don't want to lose time to browse the computer for frequently used files.
                  Gnome 3 was meant to be a minimalistic experience, the initial ideas behind it being the old unix addage of "do one thing and do it well." Thus you files are managed through Nautilus (or Gnome Files as they want people to call it), your videos through Totem (Gnome Videos), you music through Gnome Music, and lastly your program launching and windows are managed by your Gnome Shell. This is why you can't put files on the desktop, you should actually use the program who's job it is and probably put them in the folder they should go in. As for shortcuts, their launcher design largely eliminates the need for most users as it's easy to see, or search, the various programs you have installed, especially your favourites and frequents. Gnome Shell search also searches your files, although it can be a bit hit and miss so you might want to see if there are any Shell Extensions that would allow you to list a few files for easy access.

                  The primary way to interact with GNOME 3 is intended to be the Overview (the thing you get when you hit the Start key or click Activities)
                  Don't know what to say about that, I don't like be forced to do a thing only one way.
                  For me hiding everything and forcing to click a button that loads a huge menu, the loading seem slow, may it was because of being virtualized.
                  Then waiting for the icons to load and then waiting for the image to reach the retina and the the brain to process it seems pretty slow and all this process would've been faster if the icons were on the desktop from the beginning.
                  My opinion is that more clicks to do a thing means worse design. This seems like it.
                  Gnome Shell performance is always a bit of a sticking point, being written in Javascript and needing a certain OpenGL performance level does take its toll, especially on older computers, underpowered computers, or vitualisation. But if the core design is what you're hating there are a few extensions that can add back menus rather than have the fullscreen launcher.


                  No minimize button is really baffling.
                  I never thought someone will invet such a stupid thing, sorry I don't want to offend anyone, but this is my sincere reaction.
                  I an switch between windows via the overview or alt-tab?
                  What if I want to minimize all?, alt-tab I assume will always bring one to foreground...
                  For example I want 5 running programs, but none of them showing up, I want to see only the backgroun, the 'desktop'?
                  Or maybe just 1, like a music player, which of course I want it minimized, there's no nee to constantly look at it, only to listen.
                  I suppose the explaination for all of this is along the lines of "Why would you want to go back to the base desktop if there is no files/shortcuts there, if there is only the wallpaper. It now being that you don't really need to go back to the base desktop and also there being an overview/expose style window switcher, why do you need minimise". People mostly use minimise to quickly go back to the last couple of used programs, so when you've go the overview style launcher, which allows people to see all open programs on a given desktop and switch to the specific one, it becomes a button that isn't as necessary. This design does run into problems when you have large amounts of windows open, but this is sort of mitigated by the Workspaces feature which also sort of solves your last problems. If you are intent of those windows not showing up in the overview you can relegate them to a different workspace, otherwise you just have a different window running over the top of them.

                  I'm not sure if that helps anymore than what adam wrote but it might explain the core design a little more

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by SpyroRyder View Post

                    Gnome 3 was meant to be a minimalistic experience, the initial ideas behind it being the old unix addage of "do one thing and do it well." Thus you files are managed through Nautilus (or Gnome Files as they want people to call it), your videos through Totem (Gnome Videos), you music through Gnome Music, and lastly your program launching and windows are managed by your Gnome Shell. This is why you can't put files on the desktop, you should actually use the program who's job it is and probably put them in the folder they should go in. As for shortcuts, their launcher design largely eliminates the need for most users as it's easy to see, or search, the various programs you have installed, especially your favourites and frequents. Gnome Shell search also searches your files, although it can be a bit hit and miss so you might want to see if there are any Shell Extensions that would allow you to list a few files for easy access.



                    Gnome Shell performance is always a bit of a sticking point, being written in Javascript and needing a certain OpenGL performance level does take its toll, especially on older computers, underpowered computers, or vitualisation. But if the core design is what you're hating there are a few extensions that can add back menus rather than have the fullscreen launcher.



                    I suppose the explaination for all of this is along the lines of "Why would you want to go back to the base desktop if there is no files/shortcuts there, if there is only the wallpaper. It now being that you don't really need to go back to the base desktop and also there being an overview/expose style window switcher, why do you need minimise". People mostly use minimise to quickly go back to the last couple of used programs, so when you've go the overview style launcher, which allows people to see all open programs on a given desktop and switch to the specific one, it becomes a button that isn't as necessary. This design does run into problems when you have large amounts of windows open, but this is sort of mitigated by the Workspaces feature which also sort of solves your last problems. If you are intent of those windows not showing up in the overview you can relegate them to a different workspace, otherwise you just have a different window running over the top of them.

                    I'm not sure if that helps anymore than what adam wrote but it might explain the core design a little more
                    Gnome 3 was meant to be a minimalistic experience?
                    I think they should advertise that very well and explain to people that is so minimalistic that even creating a 'TODO' file on the desktop is too much for it.
                    I don't get why they chose to develope a minimilalistic DE...
                    Did they intend to use it on embedded devices, something like Raspberry Pi?

                    I always hated the unix addage of "do one thing and do it well."
                    In theory is good and I like it, but in practice I don't think I have ever seen to work well.
                    I mean linux in general it looks like a big lego or puzzle where everyone develops their own piece and at the end everyone expect all the pieces to fit in their place perfectly.
                    Of course they don't' how could they, the pieces are made by hundreds of different developers with hundreds of different ideas.
                    For example I like that all the pices of systemd are built togheter by the same people, I like that the pieces understand eachother and communicate to eachother
                    There are some things that I don't like about it's journal, but still in general I like that it's "do many things and do it well".
                    Putting my files, (videos,music,pictures) in a programs's folder doesn't make any sense to me, I can't find any good logic in this.
                    Calling these files names based on programs' name is even more stupid.
                    I already hate that some desktop environments call their built-in programs names on the user side instead o being just 'Text editor', 'Word processor', 'Video/Music player'
                    I think this is very confusing to new users and who cares about this? it's not like they're brands.
                    Anyway I'm used to put my files on dedicated partitions like Movies or Music that should be the same in any OS
                    If the Video player of that OS can't read them from where I'm putting them, it's its job, I'm giving up on it or I'm giving up on the OS if the player is too deeply integrated.
                    Anyway I never put my files where the OS or its programs says, I don't want to accidentaly delete the on reinstalls.

                    Sometimes when I got too many programs running the desktop can become cluttered with all the windows and I want to minimize them all and start fresh by maximizing only the one that I really need.
                    But I think I get your point by not having a minimize button because you also don't have files and shortcuts there.

                    And yes, your answer helps understand things not covered by Adam, You explain very well also.
                    Thank you!

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Installing Nvidia is the worst experience I've ever encountered. Bring on easy install like on Windows or Feral proposed.

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