Systemd Is The Future Of Debian

[valeriodean]

because google does that it doesn't mean that it's not evil. Yes it is a crime



yes because CLA will kill you and rape your children...
If you only knew how many projects use CLA...

Can someone explain to me why CLA is bad?

Do you want a proof how a CLA can be heavily hated by open source devs?
Look to what wrote a systemd's dev, one of the senior devs together with Lennard.
Read here
So yeah, Canonical's CLA doesn't rape any children but it is still enough to kill all the adoption proposals external to Canonical's word.

[Gusar]

You don't remember libindicate? Canonical made something great and the community just ignored it and pretended it didn't exist.. Then the community went on to write libnotify from scratch which does pretty much the exact same thing.

libnotify existed already before Canonical came up with libindicate.

Whatever Canonical does, they get screwed over by the community..

No, Canonical screwed over themselves. Upstart did see adoption, but was later dropped in favor of systemd because of the CLA. In my previous post I linked to Kay Sievers' Google+ posting - read that. Red Hat tried to get Canonical to remove the CLA for upstart. Canonical didn't budge.

So don't go blaming the community, this one is all on Canonical. And since you're about bringing up examples, how do you explain Mir? Wayland was in development for quite some time already, even Canonical themselves said they'll adopt it. Then, out of the blue, they announce they've been working behind-the-scenes on their own display server. And the technical reasons for that (mainly server-side buffer allocation and use of Android drivers) were bogus.

Well, let me clue you on on something.

Whenever you go to google.com and search for something that I find particularly interesting.
Google sends me information about what you saw on that google search page, what links you clicked, and exactly what time you clicked them.
Yes, I pay google to do this and they do it.

You think just because Canonical sends some searchterms to Amazon, is such a crime. I think that's ridiculous. It's standard practice for search engines. I think this example more than anything shows people wanting to just make up whatever reasons to rationalize their irrational dislike/hate for Canonical.

Except that when you visit google.com, you know you're online and you're making online queries. Whereas the dashboard is mostly used for *local* queries, like searching for apps or searching for files. That's the big problem - sending *everything* to Amazon instead of having online queries clearly separate from the local ones is downright ridiculous.

[schmidtbag]

HAHAHA~
You don't remember libindicate? Canonical made something great and the community just ignored it and pretended it didn't exist.. Then the community went on to write libnotify from scratch which does pretty much the exact same thing.

Whatever Canonical does, they get screwed over by the community..

Make an awesome indicate system, the community ignores it completely and writes libnotify from scratch.
Make a better init system, only a few distros adopt it and everybody else waits for something better.. Systemd comes out, made by the community, and all the distros jump on it in a heartbeat.

...

To be honest, I find it kinda hilarious about how bad the community is to Canonical.

I hope you realize there's a major difference in the example you brought up - with the notify system, Canonical made something new they felt was necessary and/or under-developed. In the case of something like upstart or Mir, they simply just did things their own way when there is GOOD existing software that NEEDS attention. I'm not saying upstart or Mir are bad products - canonical made great progress on mir in a short amount of time. But contributing to upstart and wayland would serve the community better than canonical going their separate ways. The kind of fragmentation this causes doesn't help development. Canonical is a relatively wealthy company that has the resources to really help open source projects.

A good way to look at this is like a nurse walking out in the middle of a major surgery to take care of someone else's needs because of some stupid reason like "I don't like this patient - he looked at my butt and smiled". The nurse isn't exactly wrong and depending on how you look at it, isn't obligated to help the guy (assuming she's still doing real work around the hospital). But, the nurse doesn't have the best of priorities and doesn't help the morale of the rest of the team. Canonical isn't obligated to help everyone else either, but really all they're doing is slowing down the inevitable progression of systemd and wayland. I'm not sure about upstart, but mir doesn't have a promising future. I'm not saying it WILL fail, but there's a chance it won't last.

[You-]

Scott James Remnant

If you don't think the CLA is, ask yourself why the original author of Upstart himself does not contribute to it?

Actually you don't need to ask yourself, since he has stated his own views on the CLA: https://plus.google.com/+ScottJamesR...ts/SiDSNnr5JTY

[Delgarde]

The scary thing about systemd is that if I understand things correctly its a once you're in, you can ever get out.
It cant be replaced and switched out for something else.

Where do you get that idea from? Of course you can switch it for something else... think about it, how would it even be possible to have an app you could never migrate away from, couldn't uninstall and replace with something else. Sure, it might be a bit of work, but it's just as true to say that you can't migrate away from sysvinit or upstart...

[septianix]

The scary thing about systemd is that if I understand things correctly its a once you're in, you can ever get out.
It cant be replaced and switched out for something else.

I don't know how good or bad systemd is, maybe its good today, but what about in a couple of years?

Yeah, it does feel like systemd is the "Hotel California" of Linux distros.

You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave...

[Bestia]

Except that when you visit google.com, you know you're online and you're making online queries. Whereas the dashboard is mostly used for *local* queries, like searching for apps or searching for files. That's the big problem - sending *everything* to Amazon instead of having online queries clearly separate from the local ones is downright ridiculous.

Except that when you open Dash you will see this text:

Search your computer and online sources

This also displays in the information bubble of the Dash icon. Also the searches are sent to Canonical servers not Amazon.

[schmidtbag]

Where do you get that idea from? Of course you can switch it for something else... think about it, how would it even be possible to have an app you could never migrate away from, couldn't uninstall and replace with something else. Sure, it might be a bit of work, but it's just as true to say that you can't migrate away from sysvinit or upstart...

I think the issue is init systems have a lot of integration with the rest of the OS. It's not exactly a quick and easy process to reliably switch, especially when you consider documentation.

[Gusar]

Except that when you open Dash you will see this text:

Search your computer and online sources

Why "except"? That's exactly what I said is ridiculous - local and online queries are combined. Just because that line is there does not make it any less ridiculous. It doesn't matter that the queries go to Canonical and not directly to Amazon - local queries shouldn't go to *anyone*.

[Annabel]

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/29160.html

https://plus.google.com/108087225644395745666/posts/C3chC26khpq

https://plus.google.com/+ScottJamesRemnant/posts/SiDSNnr5JTY

That's for starters. Basically, the problem with Canonical's CLA is the asymmetry - Canonical has more rights than everyone else does. Other projects that are also under CLA do not have such asymmetry. Either because they're under a permissive license (Apache), and as such everyone can make proprietary derivatives regardless of CLA. Or in the case of the FSF, they assure you the CLA'd project will forever remain under a copyleft license, so again everyone is on equal footing.

no, but it can kill your side of the project since you basically gave them "do as you please".

http://thepcspy.com/read/ubuntu-and-...tor-agreement/

it's not worse than using permissive licensed software
but you could fork it anyway if you don't like the CLA

in my opinion GPL > GPL + CLA > permissive license