It Looks Like Systemd Will Win The Debian Init Battle

[z0id]

Difference between diversity and fragmentation.

I saw someone proposing Upstart over systemd in order to avoid "monoculture" which I thought it was crazy. There is a difference between diversity and fragmentation. Having many DEs, like GNOME, KDE, etc, is good, because some people like big-buttoned, simplified interfaces for their (touch) devices while others like customisability and a multitude of features. Having many ways to set the hostname, a static network address, or the timezeone is bad, because no-one cares about them. I don't think anyone wants /etc/some-different-for-every-distro-file-for-setting-some-basic-stuff. Fragmentation is why I gave up on Canonical and Ubuntu. The Mir stuff really was the last drop. And now they're at it again.

When Arch switched to systemd I thought it was pretty cool, but when I installed Fedora and it was the same thing underneath my reaction was "it's a Unix system, I know this". I imagine a world where you can switch from one distribution to another and the basic configuration is the same. You won't have to re-learn a hundred slightly different ways of doing the same thing. A world where the only differences between distros are the package manager (still room to improvement here) and the release plans focused on stability/cutting edge/some niche.
This is what Linux distros should be all about, IMHO. And systemd may very well make it a reality. If systemd is chosen in Debian, I think it will be a huge step in that direction.

[justmy2cents]

easiest and smartest solving of the problem raised by Ian would simply be everyone casting 2 votes just to go with debian procedure

1. remove bdale = NO
2. vote on Ian's ballot = FD, where FD means that later proposed bdale's ballot is correct as it is simple and doesn't cripple debian in process like Ian's does. not to mention it was Ian that actually said in his ballot that FD can be expressed as CFV

procedurally clean and complete solution would serve much better to debian than pissing contests

[Sidicas]

Honestly, I was very shocked and disappointed by his behavior.

Specifically I meant his behavior after realizing he lost.

[BubuXP]

I know it sounds completely wild, but I would guess he's trying to become a Canonical employee again and having a "I got Debian to use upstart" under his belt would go a long way?

Honestly, I was very shocked and disappointed by his behavior.

Elop was supposed to be no more a Microsoft employee when he became the CEO of Nokia, right?

[Akka]

I don't think this has anything todo with Canonical.
I think he is anti systemd. I get the impression he also is pretty anti gnome.
They all understands they need a new init system. Jackson supports upstart because he don't like systemd and what systemd stands for.

[Sidicas]

I saw someone proposing Upstart over systemd in order to avoid "monoculture" which I thought it was crazy. There is a difference between diversity and fragmentation. Having many DEs, like GNOME, KDE, etc, is good, because some people like big-buttoned, simplified interfaces for their (touch) devices while others like customisability and a multitude of features.

Ya but there's *BIG* difference between providing competing alternatives and providing init systems that haven't been updated in 5+ years and are lacking features that people expect.

It's Apples and Oranges.

But yea, a serious competitor or even a fork of systemd would be interesting to see. Maybe the devs of the other init systems can start working on that now that almost all of the distros have moved on.

OpenRC does have the potential... If only we could find that darn manual !! (it was brought up several times in discussions on the mailing list that nobody could find any comprehensive documentation for OpenRC).

[Delgarde]

kudos for Steve for being an Ubuntu dev and not trying to screw over the voting process.

Yeah, despite his position as an Upstart developer, Steve has handled this whole thing pretty well - he's been open about that bias, hasn't allowed it to interfere with bringing facts to the table, and along with Colin and Russ, was one of the group trying to sort out a compromise position over the past week or two.

[Sidicas]

I don't think this has anything todo with Canonical.
I think he is anti systemd. I get the impression he also is pretty anti gnome.
They all understands they need a new init system. Jackson supports upstart because he don't like systemd and what systemd stands for.

If that was the case, then he could just fork systemd, rip out anything he doesn't like, and make it into a new init system. Ian definitely has the skills to do such a thing. I feel there's something else going on here that goes beyond being against systemd, but that's just my opinion. I've got a gut feeling it has everything to do with Canonical and getting Debian to use the CLA licensed upstart.

I also can't imagine anybody being anti-(any DE).. They're all awesome and we all know so many people that work so hard on those everyday .

[justmy2cents]

I don't think this has anything todo with Canonical.
I think he is anti systemd. I get the impression he also is pretty anti gnome.
They all understands they need a new init system. Jackson supports upstart because he don't like systemd and what systemd stands for.

i think reasoning lies elsewhere. he tried to propose 3 patches in his review process, where all 3 where flat out refused by both systemd upstream and debian systemd. and more he whined about that, the more aggravated ppl in question were becoming where reasoning became almost equal to "IT'S MORONIC!!!!" thread starts here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte.../msg00182.html this is the point where he started to be completely biased in order to make systemd lose no matter what.

he tried to propose:
- using SIGSTOP to expose service readiness
- using PATH in service description files
- simpler readiness protocol

even browsing trough that thread one can see that Ian went into ?discovery? with upstart=winner in mind. he didn't try to adapt to solution to check it out, he was adapting systemd to be as deficient as upstart. all 3 patches actually do is enable workarounds for upstart where it is failing with forcing systemd to accept this hacks as blessed

[SyXbiT]

I'm fine with Debian taking this long. It's a really important decision. Glad they settled on systemd.