Originally posted by interested
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Future Of Fedora Spins Is Questioned With Fedora.Next
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Originally posted by eidolon View PostWhile downloads through fedoraproject.org don't tell the whole story for reasons that are commonly mentioned when trying to approximate actual usage, does the Fedora Project track downloads in such a way it can be determined which install media are most downloaded (e.g. DVD, netinstall, KDE live media, GNOME live media, Xfce live media, etc)? I'm going to hazard a guess that GNOME live media is the most downloaded, at least in part due to its being the Fedora default and relatedly the most visible download. I know that spins.fedoraproject.org ranks spins by popularity, though there are no numbers provided to put that in context, nor does it shed any light on downloads for DVD, netinstall, or GNOME live media. That (i.e. a piece of the puzzle of how Fedora gets into the hands of users) may be completely extraneous to the Fedora Project's current internal discussions, but I would like to know if download figures are collected somewhere, and are readily accessible (internally or externally to the Fedora Project).
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Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post[snip...] Spins are one form of that. Network installation is another. Kickstart is yet another. What you pick depends on what level of control you want.
Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post[snip...] but feel free to participate in the discussions directly if you want to to make sure the concerns are addressed.
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Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostRight now the ?Desktop? is Gnome-only (there is no ?Gnome? variant of Fedora, Fedora Desktop simply ships Gnome). However, the KDE variant AFAIK is the only Spin with the power to block Fedora release, i.e. if there is a showstopping bug in a crucial KDE / Plasma Desktop component (KWin for example), a Fedora release won't ship until that bug is resolved.
No other desktop has that power. Not Xfce, not LXDE, not Mate, not Cinnamon. And that's why Fedora ships Plasma Workspaces as default on ARM.
That Fedora ships Plasma on ARM will last exactly until GNOME OS (aka Gnome 4) is stable enough to replace it and not a day longer.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostIf anything, the current Fedora KDE spin will likely be promoted from a mere Spin to a Fedora Product. As for the other desktops: Their fate is not so sure but I doubt they'd be eliminated from the repos.
Personally, I think as long as they are kept in the repos, delegating responsibility for default setups to remixes is not that bad. I do not use default Fedora. I use the Korora remix. Korora is great and if Korora gets more volunteers by becoming the number one destination for people who want to have Plasma Desktop, Xfce, LXDE or whatever by default, it'll be great.
I hope that KDE will be promoted to a Fedora "product", but I don't share your optimism about it. Red Hat and Fedora have long given KDE the "Silent Treatment", they don't talk about KDE, and they don't feature it on any Fedora promotional material (screen shots are always Gnome), so I find it extremely unlikely, that after so many years of barely tolerating KDE, Red Hat would be involved in anything that would promote KDE from second or third class citizen, to anything resembling parity with Gnome.
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I'm not arguing against Fedora.next as an abstract (I'm actually receptive to some of the overarching concepts), it's how the details are filled in and the implementation is carried out that concerns me. I understand wanting to increase Fedora's "relevance and value to the FOSS ecosystem", but arguably just as important as increasing relevance and value is not eroding the relevance and value that already exist.
As specifically regards spins, I agree in general principle with https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipe...ry/194891.html. It appears that if spins became remixes, relationship-wise they would be no more a part of the Fedora Project than Korora, RFRemix, etc (in other words, they wouldn't fall under the Fedora Project umbrella); they wouldn't receive Fedora branding and Fedora Project endorsement. With no place as Fedora Project offerings and no appeal as third-party-software-inclusive remixes (as presumably the to-be-ex spins would still eschew that), and with unforeseen barriers to continuation then being faced, I don't see most of them being long for this world. Without the Fedora Project, I wonder if sooner or later these efforts would cease to continue, either due to the infrastructure burden or becoming so out-of-sight-out-of-mind that they wither away. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some sort of value threshold that has to be met (and how that would be determined I can't say), but I hope no premature decisions are made while Fedora.next is still coming into focus, and not just as it relates to spins. Based on the most recent messages, it looks like there won't be a rush to judgment, and that's good.
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Originally posted by interested View PostWell, that is how things are right now, but with the elimination of the KDE Spin, and no other KDE workstation install medium is available, will KDE still be a release priority that can block a release because of showstopper bugs?
There could just as well be Fedora Workstation with a desktop selection screen during installation.
There could also be a Tablet product with Plasma Active as default (contrary to popular rumors Gnome is not a tablet interface).
Everything is just work in progress. No final decisions have been made.
Originally posted by interested View PostThat Fedora ships Plasma on ARM will last exactly until GNOME OS (aka Gnome 4) is stable enough to replace it and not a day longer.
Originally posted by interested View PostA good Fedora remix depends on Fedora as upstream. By "delegating responsibility" for KDE to remixes, KDE will effectively be removed from Fedora. There will no longer be any upstream KDE packages, and Fedora bug reports on KDE will disappear from bugzilla.
Let me give you a dose of reality: Right now there is no Cinnamon spin of Fedora. Cinnamon exists in the repositories, though, and Korora (a Fedora remix maintained by only two or so people) managed to offer Cinnamon ISOs: https://kororaproject.org/download
Originally posted by interested View PostRed Hat and Fedora have long given KDE the "Silent Treatment", they don't talk about KDE
Originally posted by interested View Postand they don't feature it on any Fedora promotional material (screen shots are always Gnome)
I don't care what's default as long as the software I want works well. Kubuntu has Plasma Desktop as default but it's a broken POS.
Originally posted by interested View Postso I find it extremely unlikely, that after so many years of barely tolerating KDE, Red Hat would be involved in anything that would promote KDE from second or third class citizen, to anything resembling parity with Gnome.
That's a fact.
In 2013 Red Hat developed Plasma-NM, a new front-end for NetworkManager, and KScreen. RH took over maintenance of Akonadi, Phonon-GStreamer, KDE Telepathy, and Solid and contributes to KDM and SDDM.
Yes, Red Hat focuses more on Gnome but employing KDE developers and fully supporting KDE in RHEL is hardly hostility towards KDE.
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Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostThere could just as well be Fedora Workstation with a desktop selection screen during installation.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostWhy should they show something other than the default? If you want to see bad marketing material, just look at release notes of LibreOffice: They are an incoherent mess! Some screenshots are taken under Windows, some OSX, some Ubuntu, some Plasma Desktop, and some under Gnome. It looks terrible.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostI don't care what's default as long as the software I want works well. Kubuntu has Plasma Desktop as default but it's a broken POS.
Plus no distribution ships with any warranty; if it doesn't work well, that's really just too bad. Wait for the next release.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostIn 2013 Red Hat developed Plasma-NM, a new front-end for NetworkManager, and KScreen. RH took over maintenance of Akonadi, Phonon-GStreamer, KDE Telepathy, and Solid and contributes to KDM and SDDM.
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Originally posted by Sonadow View PostThat is the downside of distributions that advertise a default DE (like how Gnome appears to be a second class citizen under KDE-centric distributions like OpenSUSE and Mandriva / Mageia).
Originally posted by Sonadow View PostWeren't Novell and OpenSUSE supposed to be KDE's biggest contributors?
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Originally posted by GreatEmerald View PostOpenSUSE users are tied, 50/50, between KDE and GNOME.
And Novell / Attachmate / the OpenSUSE team clearly aim for OpenSUSE to be the best ever KDE distribution:
Originally posted by GreatEmerald View PostNope. You must be thinking about something else, like Blue Systems.
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Originally posted by Sonadow View PostFunny because OpenSUSE is always among the top contenders for best KDE distribution:
And Novell / Attachmate / the OpenSUSE team clearly aim for OpenSUSE to be the best ever KDE distribution:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:No_1_KDE_strategy
Originally posted by Sonadow View PostFunny again because KDE themselves says so: http://dot.kde.org/2007/07/07/intel-...me-patrons-kde
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