Debian To Switch To Systemd Or Upstart

[Ericg]

so dont judge when others do what you do

Oi! Get it right, I'm independent freelance!

[pingufunkybeat]

TO CLARIFY, so that other people ARE NOT misinformed. Gnome does not depend directly upon logind, or systemd. What gnome depends upon is the DBUS Interfaces that Logind presents so that there is a UNIFYING effort in Linux. Now, to repeat: Logind is not required. Its DBUS interfaces, however, ARE-- specifically.. only 2 of them. What does that mean for people on non-systemd systems? You can continue to use Gnome and NOT logind, AS LONG AS you have a piece of software that supplies the necessary interfaces that are required.

You want to go out and make a new login program like logind, but that isnt logind? Awesome, great, maintain backwards compatibility with the DBUS API's and no one will care.

TO CLARIFY, so that other people ARE NOT misinformed. Office does not depend directly upon Windows. What Office depends upon is the Windows Interfaces that Windows presents so that there is a UNIFYING effort on PCs. Now, to repeat: Windows is not required. WinAPI interfaces, however, ARE-- specifically.. only 3 million of them. What does that mean for people on non-Windows systems? You can continue to use Office and NOT Windows, AS LONG AS you have a piece of software that supplies the necessary interfaces that are required.

You want to go out and make a new API program like WinAPI, but that isnt WinAPI like WINE? Awesome, great, maintain backwards compatibility with the WinAPI and no one will care.

SCNR

There, now nobody ever needs to port anything to Linux anymore

[Ericg]

TO CLARIFY, so that other people ARE NOT misinformed. Office does not depend directly upon Windows. What Office depends upon is the Windows Interfaces that Windows presents so that there is a UNIFYING effort on PCs. Now, to repeat: Windows is not required. WinAPI interfaces, however, ARE-- specifically.. only 3 million of them. What does that mean for people on non-Windows systems? You can continue to use Office and NOT Windows, AS LONG AS you have a piece of software that supplies the necessary interfaces that are required.

You want to go out and make a new API program like WinAPI, but that isnt WinAPI like WINE? Awesome, great, maintain backwards compatibility with the WinAPI and no one will care.

SCNR

There, now nobody ever needs to port anything to Linux anymore

Again Pingu, same thing I told gens above... Matter of scale. You're not re-implementing all of WinAPI (or GTK), you're re-implementing TWO DBus interfaces.

Also, while I can't speak for the quality of the product, Office apparently DOESNT depend on WinAPI since it supports OS X.

[Awesomeness]

Gentoo uses OpenRC
Upstart put side by side with systemd make Upstart look like just a ugly hack
soon Ubuntu will be the only one using Upstart or what's left of it because they are already using systemd components to keep up wiht systemd development

Ubuntu IVI already uses systemd because it's mandatory for GENIVI certification.

[k1l_]

GNOME does NOT require logind. Get your facts straight!

Speaking as a GNOME release team member. Suggest to stop making up bullshit (or I'll make you look like a fool :P).

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/10/msg00444.html

so this is all just FUD?

[liam]

ye, you right
seems there is much confusion in that part, maybe 'cuz its listed as "dependancy"
i dont have time nor patience to read the source codes so i read what ppl that do write
whats wrong with that ?

the whole "systemd taking over the world" probably stems from systemd absorbing udev


still i wont be convinced cuz
i was convinced on this forum, using logic, that pulseaudio can be minimal overhead 'cuz zero copy
half year later i started learning low level stuff (mostly "advanced" cpu programming) and found out that zero copy is not as great as it sounds (its still copy, memory still blocked)

http://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/

I thought that post was pretty interesting. It enumerates what is meant by logind dependence, and, more importantly, how systemd/logind both alllow programs to be made more robust (by relying on systemd services) and to allow interesting features to be more easily implemented (like automatic resource sandboxing, and later security sandboxes).

all of it brings nothing i need or will probably ever need, only "integration" and reinventing the wheel
il wait and see


if you got a link to a proper discussion about the low level part of systemd, id be happy to read it

just be sure its not a rant about how great it is by the people who made it (lots of that on the 'net) as i like having two sides
it brings objectivity

PS "marketing articles".... rly ?
read lennarts blog (the most linked thing about systemd on phoronix), it starts with marketing and ends with marketing
so dont judge when others do what you do

The "two sides" idea is a macguffin. In and of itself it isn't always useful. Between two arbitrary sides there may not actually be any sort of equivalence.
OpenRC actually has one advantage over systemd in that it should be much more easily portable to other kernels. Upstart has literally no advantages over systemd. If you can find one I'd love to hear it.
If you want to really dive into the technical side: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/.

http://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/

That is an interesting post for a few reasons. One, it enumerates how/why logind is used. Two, it explains how systemd makes software that is both more robust and more featureful.

[Delgarde]

If Debian take seriously systemd then, meanwhile, they must think to drop the support to the others kernel.
LP has stated clearly that they do *not* support nothing than linux, so everythink must be implemented downstream.
Debian is ready to do that? I don't think.
So they think to drop the others kernel support? I don't think.

Really, they could. Much is made of the ability to run Debian on kernels other than Linux, but the proportion of their users that actually do so is negligible. If they dropped support for BSD and Hurd, there'd be a bit of fuss and drama over it, but I don't think it would actually hurt them...

[MartinN]

Plea to the Debian devs

Please choose 'systemd'. We want Debian to remain a respectable distribution rather than go the way of other unsavory distributions.

[Delgarde]

GNOME does NOT require logind. Get your facts straight!

Technically no, but in practice it does. It needs *something* that provides certain functionality, and right now, that something is either the unmaintained and increasingly broken ConsoleKit, or logind. Theoretically someone could write something else that provides the same interfaces, but since such a thing doesn't actually exist, it's accurate enough to say that Gnome requires logind.

[doom_Oo7]

so since all of this originated because of gnome, why would not Debian ditch Gnome if it is so important to keep sysvinit ? And go to XFCE / LXDE by default for instance.
(Note : I personnally run Debian with systemd without any sort of problems, the only major hassle is the necessity to reinstall systemd-sysv every time I dist-upgrade)