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Unity 2D To Go Away In Ubuntu 12.10

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    allquixotic
    Senior Member

  • allquixotic
    replied
    Originally posted by asdx
    Can't nvidia just help improve nouveau and mesa? I mean, my understanding is that nvidia is too tied to the X11 architecture and doesn't really use DRM. So wouldn't it be easier for them to just work on nouveau instead of having to port the whole blob to another windowing system? Is that even possible with Wayland?

    nouveau already seems to be set with the foundation and using the whole kernel/Linux stack, it seems like it just needs more improvements with performance and also mesa needs to catch up with the latest OpenGL specs to be viable for gaming, etc.
    Nvidia officially supporting Nouveau would be tantamount to them officially endorsing a reverse engineering effort of their products (namely, their binary drivers and their hardware).

    I'm not sure they are particularly motivated to try and take legal action against the Nouveau folks as-is (in fact I rather doubt they would), but neither are they going to come out and say, "Yep, go ahead, RE our drivers; that's a good way to develop open drivers for our hardware! Release some open documentation while you're at it!"

    That kind of attitude is just NOT the way Nvidia works as a company. They don't "get" open source at all, save for maybe half a dozen people in the entire company. And those people aren't the senior execs calling the shots; they're people "like bridgman but at Nvidia" (middle managers or worker bees). They can't turn the gears of the company; they are the gears.

    It's too bad, because both of Nvidia's major x86 graphics competitors (Intel and AMD) are a LOT more open about publicly supporting official open source graphics drivers. But Nvidia would never do that, whether the implementation of the drivers were "clean room" or "reverse engineered" or even "officially supported by Nvidia". They just don't like open source at all, because there's a risk of their precious "IP" leaking to AMD and giving AMD an edge. Ohnoes!

    (Aside: The final jab in the stomach for Nvidia is that, despite remaining as selfishly proprietary as possible, the community's RE efforts have done a great job of providing AMD easily-obtaining information about how their competitor's hardware works, and they could probably use this to help them improve their own products if they wanted to. Might be a contributing factor to why AMD's harwdare is so outstanding and extremely competitive / better than Nvidia's since about the HD4000 generation!)

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  • liam
    Senior Member

  • liam
    replied
    Originally posted by russofris View Post
    I love it when the guy with the unused Soloflex argues with the guy with the unused gym membership about which has the better workout routine.

    Re: Switching to Wayland forces Nvidia to react.

    I have no reason to believe that hardware vendors will react any differently to Wayland than they have previously reacted to X11. Their quickest path to market is probably to create a shim between Wayland and their in-house blob. The only difference this time around is that OSS drivers are first to market. While this settles the philosophical chicken/egg question, we still end up with chickens and eggs. To summarize, I expect we'll be in exactly the same position with Wayland in 2 years as we are with X11 today.

    I think you are mostly right. What I hope is that Wayland will make work easier for all the developers. Certainly a big win is that it brings a large part of the linux graphic stack up to modern standards (and should make Peter Hutterer happier), and make things easier to work with in the future. So, it is possible that proprietary drivers get ever so slightly more streamlined.

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  • johnc
    Official X.org Fanboy

  • johnc
    replied
    X is awesome.

    Leave a comment:

  • russofris
    Senior Member

  • russofris
    replied
    I love it when the guy with the unused Soloflex argues with the guy with the unused gym membership about which has the better workout routine.

    Re: Switching to Wayland forces Nvidia to react.

    I have no reason to believe that hardware vendors will react any differently to Wayland than they have previously reacted to X11. Their quickest path to market is probably to create a shim between Wayland and their in-house blob. The only difference this time around is that OSS drivers are first to market. While this settles the philosophical chicken/egg question, we still end up with chickens and eggs. To summarize, I expect we'll be in exactly the same position with Wayland in 2 years as we are with X11 today.

    Leave a comment:

  • Gusar
    Senior Member

  • Gusar
    replied
    Originally posted by asdx
    I'd rather be spoiled than a conformist.
    Umm, there aren't just those two options, you know. And about spoiled, as a kid you can scream "I want it, I want it!" and your mommy will get it for you. But the real world doesn't work like that.

    Originally posted by asdx
    And I've used the wrong word, I should have said "man the fuck up" because that's what developers should do but they don't because they are too afraid of doing anything that will piss off nvidia.
    Well, have you "manned the fuck up" yet and deprecated X from your machine? No? Why not?

    In your little world, this might be about "too afraid to piss off nvidia". But in the real world, people want to, you know, *use* their machines. X makes that possible. Wayland does not. The developers are making it happen. Which makes them already way more "manned up" that you are. They're actually writing code, instead of being obnoxious on forums.

    But if you think they're so incompetent, why don't you show them how it's done, write some code to make Wayland happen faster. I'm sure they'll be happy to get new contributors. Go ahead, let us see *your* competence. Prove that you can do more that just dish out colorful words, show us how much of a man you are.
    Gusar
    Senior Member
    Last edited by Gusar; 09 May 2012, 03:29 PM.

    Leave a comment:

  • Gusar
    Senior Member

  • Gusar
    replied
    Originally posted by asdx
    We need to add support for Wayland to everything NOW and FORCE nvidia to support Wayland, otherwise they will just be lazy about it and won't give a shit about Wayland or anything you come up with.

    Deprecate X NOW and force nvidia to support Wayland or get them out of business. Plain and simple.

    And for the people or developers being afraid to do this: Grow the fuck up already and quit being a fucking sissy.
    Dude! What did I tell you about your demands and being a spoiled kid? You've just now proven to be exactly that, a spoiled kid, and nothing more.

    Deprecating X has nothing to do with anyone needing to grow the fuck up. If you think it's so easy, then go do just that, you "grow the fuck up" and deprecate X from your machine, see how far you'll get.

    Leave a comment:

  • droidhacker
    Senior Member

  • droidhacker
    replied
    Originally posted by russofris View Post
    This is not a problem with the tech itself, it is a problem with the Unity/Gnome/KDE implementation of the tech. OSX is a good example of a good (yet subdued) implementation of 3D compositing.


    I disagree that they are worthless. A quality reference software stack is a good thing, even if only used as a baseline in which hardware stacks are compared. To say that a product is not performant, while still in it's infancy, is probably short sighted. CPUs will get faster, the software will get faster, and may become useful given time to grow.


    I completely agree. With the exception of some of the corner cases that you outlined, this is dead-on. I think of LLVMPIPE as a potential VESA alternative, and not a replacement for 3D drivers. It may have additional uses once linux has a multi-GPU framework in place, and performance is improved.

    F
    We're sort-of agreeing here. The problem is that they're using the software specifically for that reason that you say is not appropriate. In context, what I said is that these are useless **for this purpose**. I agree that a software reference driver is definitely a valuable thing.

    And yeah, mac10 does compositing, but doesn't accomplish anything useful with it. Its still just eye candy over a very frustrating UI. I wish people would focus on making the UI **GOOD** instead of just "pretty". Sometimes GOOD is also UGLY.

    Leave a comment:

  • PsynoKhi0
    Senior Member

  • PsynoKhi0
    replied
    Originally posted by psycho_driver View Post
    This makes me sad. I'm actually quite liking 12.04 on my wife's desktop after some minor tweaks. One of which was switching to unity-2d. 3D has some pretty annoying bugs with some opengl applications (wine in some instances, for one).
    I second that, running it on fairly old laptop, and it's a very clean DE, gets the job done. The onboard Radeon X1100 is sluggish with the 3D version (tried most of the Compiz Config tweaks I could find, disabling vsync, upping the refresh rate, disabling Dash blur...)
    Good thing it's a five years support... Worst case scenario I'm back to Xubuntu.

    Leave a comment:

  • daniels
    X.Org Developer

  • daniels
    replied
    Originally posted by jakubo View Post
    How about multimonitor setups?
    I have encountered a 2048x2048 pixel limit on my i945 powered laptop for 3d acceleration, which forced me to use unity 2d when having a second monitor attached. So this probably needs to get "fixed" - or worked around. And as someone mentioned before: the top panel does not always behave nicely when using wine in fullscreen mode... (same thing for special keys and shortcuts in games)
    It's a hardware limitation that's very hard to work around in software, and made even harder by X's design. Even if you did work around it you'd end up having to do all your rendering twice if you had a window that extended across outputs, so performance would be even worse than usual with 945 -- which is very bad as IIRC it doesn't have any hardware vertex shaders.

    I have absolutely no idea where the suggestion that Canonical deliberately crippled it came from.

    Leave a comment:

  • Massa
    Junior Member

  • Massa
    replied
    Originally posted by asdx
    Good, it's time to move forward and embrace the future. When is Unity going to be working 100% with Wayland?
    When both nVidia and ATI support it with their proprietary drivers, so maybe in 4 years?

    Leave a comment:

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