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  • #81
    Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
    *sigh* I hate to feed the trolls but I guess I have to bite on this one...

    The reason you never saw fragmentation higher than 2% on Linux is because Linux is measuring the fragmentation of individual files only, while Windows looks at the fragmentation of individual files and also the fragmentation of the spread of the files used by the application.
    Ok, this needs to be corrected, because you are mistaken. I made a report from Windows XP defrag program:

    Entire fragmentation = 28 %
    Files fragmentation = 56 %

    Too bad for you Linux shows files fragmentation which is higher on Windows than its entire partition fragmentation, so 0,3% Linux vs 56% Windows is completely valid. To give you some picture about the problem:

    \Games\Dangerous Waters\Mods\LwAmi_Mod\Graphics\3d.grp

    File fragments:
    4434

    File size:
    226 MB

    There's many funny things that can be said about Windows security model, too. But maybe next time.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by siban View Post
      Are you crazy? What are you talking about?
      He's talking about the truth. Windows flaws cannot be fixed without complete rewrite. Nothing shows this will ever happen and MS just can't do this right now, because it will break third party software. With Windows you are doomed to use vulnerable software. People just have to realize this. I'm not saying Windows is not usable, because sometimes it's an only option - games, specialized software. Bring the same to Linux and its market share will be much bigger then it's now.

      If Linux has ~1% market share, that is a fact, not an opinion.
      Linux has at least 1.5% and it noticed very high grow.

      Now, Linux, the kernel is 20 years old, it has some succeed in embedded computers and in supercomputers. But (GNU/)Linux, as an OS, 1% market share. How can you say it is the future? I don't think you are talking about the kernel.
      Just consider the first version of Ubuntu is Linux' first try to conquer desktops. You can be nearly sure Linux is the future, because it's designed to become the best.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by siban View Post
        If Linux has ~1% market share, that is a fact, not an opinion.
        True... Canonical needs to come up with a major Linux advertising campaign for their next 12.04 LTS... Similar to the way Firefox had a major advertising campaign. I still remember the full page Firefox ad in the newspaper. The majority of the regular people out there on the street have never even heard of Ubuntu.

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        • #84
          Ok, time to throw my two cents in here too. This is something I wrote for another forum last year when the same fragmentation arguments came up:

          I'd have to disagree with the notion that Linux doesn't need defragmenting. One immediate note is that there are many file systems Linux can use, so the answer to this question depends on the specific file system being used. If we're assuming the most common file system, ext4, it's still not accurate to say that it doesn't need to be defragmented. It can become fragmented just like NTFS, except under different conditions.

          Let's say a hypothetical file system has 300 "blocks" for storing data (picture a bunch of boxes running from left to right). NTFS starts writing data at the first available free block. If you had to write a 100 block file, a 3 block file, then a 40 block file, the 1st 100 block file takes up the 1st 100 blocks, the next 3 the 3 block file, then the 40 block file. Delete the 3 block file. Now if you need to write a 20 block file, NTFS is going to use the first free 3 blocks, 101-103, jump over the 40 block file, then write the remaining 17 blocks after it. Your file is now fragmented.

          When ext4 writes, it attempts to leave as much space as possible between files to avoid the fragmentation we just saw with NTFS. Ext4 may write that first 100 block file in the middle of the 300 blocks, the 3 block file in the middle of the free space to the left, and the last 40 blocks in the middle of the free space to the right. If you delete the 3 block file then need to write a 20 block file like in the NTFS example, there will be no fragmenting!

          That's what Linux users love to talk about. Now here's what they don't like to talk about. :-) Ext4 is maximizing the free space between files, while NTFS is maximizing contiguous free space. It's a polar opposite approach which means each's strength is the other's weakness. We've seen a situation where NTFS encountered fragmentation while ext4 did not. Let's exploit ext4's weakness and see how the situation changes. Let's write 7 10-block files to our 300-block partition, then a 50-block file. NTFS packs the files contiguously, with the 7 10-block files taking up the first 70 blocks then adds the 50-block file after them. We have 120 blocks used, 180 blocks free, no fragmentation.

          Ext4 puts the first 10-block file in the middle; that leaves 290 blocks free, 145 free blocks either side. With a little bit of rounding, with the next 2 files we now have 4 free areas of 67 blocks each (technically 2 67 and 2 68). After the last 4, we have about 7 free areas of 32 blocks apiece.

          (free space size)
          300
          145 - 145
          67-67-67-67
          32-32-32-32-32-32-32

          Now let's write that last 50-block file. Whoops, there's not a large enough free space! Ext4 is going to have to use 32 blocks in one area and then put the remaining 18 blocks in another. Fragmentation!

          Ext4 now has kernel support for online defragmentation, which also serves to highlight the need for it. :-)

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          • #85
            Originally posted by kraftman View Post
            He's talking about the truth. Windows flaws cannot be fixed without complete rewrite. Nothing shows this will ever happen and MS just can't do this right now, because it will break third party software.
            I still haven't seen any concrete examples of this. Anyway, interestingly enough MS is saying the ARM version of windows won't run all that 3rd party software, so they are free to do any changes they want there.

            After all this talk of FS fragmentation, i decided to take a look at what my windows machine was reporting. It was 1% - but then i noticed that there is a weekly job setup to run the defragmenter, so that makes sense. So really it's a non-issue for me, either way. Although I'd argue the FS is probably the weakest part of windows, at least compared to linux.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
              I still haven't seen any concrete examples of this. Anyway, interestingly enough MS is saying the ARM version of windows won't run all that 3rd party software, so they are free to do any changes they want there
              Take a look here:

              http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2390390,00.asp

              http://www.itworld.com/security/7560...security-awful

              It's exactly what I was writing about. That are facts. No, they're not free to do any changes they want on x86.
              Last edited by kraftman; 02-11-2012, 07:30 AM.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by alcalde View Post
                Now let's write that last 50-block file. Whoops, there's not a large enough free space! Ext4 is going to have to use 32 blocks in one area and then put the remaining 18 blocks in another. Fragmentation!

                Ext4 now has kernel support for online defragmentation, which also serves to highlight the need for it. :-)
                Those are corner cases and with delayed allocation and extents Ext4 is extremely less fragmented than NTFS. Just like in my case.
                Last edited by kraftman; 02-11-2012, 07:41 AM.

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                • #88
                  ext4 fragments heavyly when you use it for video recording (and delete those files later) like used for a vdr box. the only tool that "defrags" just copies to new positions, no idea how to use that online defrag mode.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                    He's talking about the truth. Windows flaws cannot be fixed without complete rewrite. Nothing shows this will ever happen and MS just can't do this right now, because it will break third party software. With Windows you are doomed to use vulnerable software. People just have to realize this. I'm not saying Windows is not usable, because sometimes it's an only option - games, specialized software. Bring the same to Linux and its market share will be much bigger then it's now.



                    Linux has at least 1.5% and it noticed very high grow.



                    Just consider the first version of Ubuntu is Linux' first try to conquer desktops. You can be nearly sure Linux is the future, because it's designed to become the best.
                    I think Canonical WANTS to surpass Linux on the desktop as any kind of priority for a system or OS on smartphones, tablets and other electronics gadgets. It's my impression they would like it to be versatile enough to install on a desktop but also a smartphone, tablet or any other type of computer or gadget that you can install an OS on. This is a big reason they've dumped KDE and Gnome. Those DEs aren't part of their priorities anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Panix View Post
                      I think Canonical WANTS to surpass Linux on the desktop as any kind of priority for a system or OS on smartphones, tablets and other electronics gadgets. It's my impression they would like it to be versatile enough to install on a desktop but also a smartphone, tablet or any other type of computer or gadget that you can install an OS on. This is a big reason they've dumped KDE and Gnome. Those DEs aren't part of their priorities anymore.
                      You may be right. One of the Ubuntu strengths is it's easily recognizable. It also gives unique experience. There are just few things in Ubuntu that I find worse compared to other distributions (like 3D games performance), but maybe upcoming release will bring improvements. There's a great comparison between Ubuntu 11.10 and Windows 7 and this suggests Ubuntu is gaining momentum:

                      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...w,3121-22.html

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