Benchmarks Of The Gentoo-Based Calculate Linux

[smitty3268]

Calc is a generic image of Gentoo. It's definitely still Gentoo, but the non-generic nature of (upstream?) Gentoo is precisely what most people would point to when asked why it would perform better than Ubuntu or other binary distros.

So yes, it does count as Gentoo. But the points about it not representing a standard Gentoo system in terms of benchmarks are valid IMO. (unless Michael changed the CFLAGS to -march=native and then emerge world-ed to recompile everything).

[locovaca]

Calc is a generic image of Gentoo. It's definitely still Gentoo, but the non-generic nature of (upstream?) Gentoo is precisely what most people would point to when asked why it would perform better than Ubuntu or other binary distros.

So yes, it does count as Gentoo. But the points about it not representing a standard Gentoo system in terms of benchmarks are valid IMO. (unless Michael changed the CFLAGS to -march=native and then emerge world-ed to recompile everything).

Once again, what is this "Standard" system you talk about? The Gentoo Documentation says that there is no need to change CFLAGS from the stage 3 defaults.

If we're going to start customizing systems, then let's jettison Compiz, Avahi, Network Manager, etc. from the Ubuntu installs too.

Gentoo makes it easier to customize. It does not require it to be "standard."

[crazycheese]

The Gentoo Documentation says that there is no need to change CFLAGS from the stage 3 defaults.

When I had C2D based system, I did change CFLAGS to amd64 generic and recompiled it, and then, after building and booting on athlon II x4 hardware, set it back to native and recompiled for famd10. Not a big deal. I think Handbook teach you more "how stuff works" instead of "how you should do it"(as with ubuntu). And Calculate was great introduction to Gentoo for me, personally.

[Shining Arcanine]

Once again, what is this "Standard" system you talk about? The Gentoo Documentation says that there is no need to change CFLAGS from the stage 3 defaults.

If we're going to start customizing systems, then let's jettison Compiz, Avahi, Network Manager, etc. from the Ubuntu installs too.

Gentoo makes it easier to customize. It does not require it to be "standard."

The standard among Gentoo Linux users is to use "-O2 -march=native -pipe" as CFLAGS. Some go through the trouble of translating -march=native into CPU-specific flags for the purpose of using distcc. On my desktop, I use "-march=core2 -mtune=core2 -mcx16 -msahf -msse4.1 --param l1-cache-size=32 --param l1-cache-line-size=64 --param l2-cache-size=6144 -O2 -pipe".

[locovaca]

When I had C2D based system, I did change CFLAGS to amd64 generic and recompiled it, and then, after building and booting on athlon II x4 hardware, set it back to native and recompiled for famd10. Not a big deal. I think Handbook teach you more "how stuff works" instead of "how you should do it"(as with ubuntu). And Calculate was great introduction to Gentoo for me, personally.

Right, I understand all that, but now you're talking about customizing your install. Phoronix is not about customizing/tuning/etc. installs for standard benchmarks. It's OOB experience. OOB Gentoo and Calc are the same, in regards to CFLAGS. I haven't looked but I'm sure Calc has a different set of USE flags.

So you say "Ok, then just customize them and benchmark." What should the flags be? If you ask that opinion in a group of n Gentoo users you will get at least n/2 responses. There are hundreds of parameters that can be changed. Everyone has an opinion on which set is "right." For example:

On my desktop, I use "-march=core2 -mtune=core2 -mcx16 -msahf -msse4.1 --param l1-cache-size=32 --param l1-cache-line-size=64 --param l2-cache-size=6144 -O2 -pipe".

Great. That's fine. Then someone else comes along and whines "This sucks, you should've used -Os". It's unmanageable.

I don't hate Gentoo. But users must understand the feasibility of it being benchmarked and the logistics behind it. That's why a standardized set of flags works for benchmarking. Even if it produces 686 code, Calc/Gentoo is supposed to be faster because it links in fewer unnecessary libraries and has fewer background services, right?

[bridgman]

Yeah, what Michael really needs to do is develop a framework that allows people to run benchmarks on their own systems and publish the results into a database

[smitty3268]

Right, I understand all that, but now you're talking about customizing your install. Phoronix is not about customizing/tuning/etc. installs for standard benchmarks. It's OOB experience. OOB Gentoo and Calc are the same, in regards to CFLAGS. I haven't looked but I'm sure Calc has a different set of USE flags.

So you say "Ok, then just customize them and benchmark." What should the flags be? If you ask that opinion in a group of n Gentoo users you will get at least n/2 responses. There are hundreds of parameters that can be changed. Everyone has an opinion on which set is "right." For example:



Great. That's fine. Then someone else comes along and whines "This sucks, you should've used -Os". It's unmanageable.

I don't hate Gentoo. But users must understand the feasibility of it being benchmarked and the logistics behind it. That's why a standardized set of flags works for benchmarking.

I think we all understand that, but it's not exactly a "typical" gentoo install. One of the main reasons to use Gentoo is specifically to customize it, so taking that away doesn't make much sense for a normal gentoo user. Of course, for a benchmarking site that's problematic because if you allow 1 distro to be customized you should probably allow the other as well. So there's no perfect answer to this, I'm just saying that the benchmarks given here perhaps aren't as illuminating as one might think at first glance.

I do think a CFLAGS -march=native -O2 -pipe are pretty darn standard among gentoo users though. Certainly more common that a generic 686 compile.

Even if it produces 686 code, Calc/Gentoo is supposed to be faster because it links in fewer unnecessary libraries and has fewer background services, right?

Eh, maybe. That tends to reduce RAM usage though, and won't do much of anything for the CPU/bandwidth limited tests Phoronix likes to do. And actually I don't even know what libs/services Calc adds in. For all I know it's just as bloated with them as a standard Ubuntu install is, in order to cater to a wider audience.

[energyman]

Sigh...

Really, why try to please the clueless part of the Gentoo users?

Everyone with a little bit of common sense knows that we can't benchmark Gentoo reliably because person A's Gentoo isn't person B's Gentoo. They know it, we know it, so why try?

++ so true.

And: the differences between 386 and pentium code was so big on my k6-2 400 back in my Slackware days that a self compiled glibc and xine-lib enabled me to watch dvds...

So there is some benefit - but on any recent system other parts of the system are the bottlenecks and not the cpu. I like gentoo because it makes it easy to install stuff. No hunting for 'dev' or 'devel' packages. I can pin one version of a certain app or lib. I don't have to care about kernel releases making the cut-off date or backporting crap. I don't have to deal with Networkmanager *grrr* or gstreamer or gconf.

[locovaca]

I don't have to deal with Networkmanager *grrr* or gstreamer or gconf.

Perhaps I'm the minority, but Networkmanager was one of the reasons I loved Ubuntu when I switched. It is 1000x easier to use for a wireless connection on a laptop when you travel a lot. On my desktop, no, I disable it and have the init scripts handle things, but Networkmanager does have its place.

I tried to get Networkmanager running under Gentoo when I was using it, took unmasking about a dozen packages and pulling in overlays. I decided it was far easier to go with a distro that actually supported it.

[Chewi]

One of Gentoo's Summer of Code projects was proper NM integration. I gather it's gone quite well.