Ubuntu's X.Org Session Support Now Split Into Separate Package

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  • ahrs
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2021
    • 587

    #41
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post

    If the compositor had a mechanism to make the app aware of the current screen layout then that wouldn't even be a problem... And once again the problem here is that Wayland is too simplistic...

    It can't do something that literally everything everywhere does for everyone and then somehow that is anyone else's fault...
    Wayland is about policy, not mechanism, so you don't say things like "Let me draw my window at exact pixel co-ordinates x,y", you say something like "My surface is a wlroots layer shell surface, please anchor me to the top left of the screen" and the compositor decides how best to do that.



    Of course, not everything in the Wayland world supports layer shell (certainly GNOME doesn't, but KDE does).

    Comment

    • duby229
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2007
      • 7783

      #42
      Originally posted by Serafean View Post

      Maybe, but without filing a good report you'll never know.
      Quick story: I filed a bug report about screencasting specific windows using firefox, very minor annoyance. KDE devs asked for a mirro bug in mozilla's bugzilla, which I did. I thought nothing of it, until bugzilla updates from mozilla started coming encrypted. Turns out it was a security issue (already fixed, not updated in browsers) in webrtc that I'd stumbled upon.
      Do file the good bug reports. At worst you lose 5 minutes of your time, and nothing happens, at best you start a discussion and make the world a better place. Posting about issues only here makes it a guarantee that nothing happens.
      This i can fully agree with. I know my last few posts were starting to make less and less sense. Sorry for that. I'll withdraw some of what I said . And I do agree with you that bitching about it here accomplished nothing.

      Comment

      • duby229
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2007
        • 7783

        #43
        Originally posted by varikonniemi View Post

        many messages ago you were already told that it's not like that, now 2 users in this thrad alone have told you that, then i told you again it's something really subtle, and still you continue your shit talking. WHY?

        IF it was like you try to say, then it would be a reproducer, and it would have been fixed already.

        But since no-one to this day has come up with a way to reproduce it, because it is so rare and dependent on interactions no-one has been able to pin down, it's still an open bug.
        I realize my last few posts were making less and less sense. Sorry. I'll refrain from bitching.

        Comment

        • duby229
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2007
          • 7783

          #44
          Originally posted by ahrs View Post

          Wayland is about policy, not mechanism, so you don't say things like "Let me draw my window at exact pixel co-ordinates x,y", you say something like "My surface is a wlroots layer shell surface, please anchor me to the top left of the screen" and the compositor decides how best to do that.



          Of course, not everything in the Wayland world supports layer shell (certainly GNOME doesn't, but KDE does).
          Yes, thank you. Just ignore some of my later posts, they were starting to get a bit unhinged from reality. I do appreciate the correction.

          Comment

          • tildearrow
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 7099

            #45
            Originally posted by Serafean View Post

            That is correct. 99% of apps have no business knowing where they're drawn.
            Clients deciding where they're drawn results in hilarious situations, especially when screen configurations change between runs. Let the WM decide of placement, it'll do a better job...
            What about remembering window position?
            That can't be 1%.

            Comment

            • Serafean
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 614

              #46
              Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

              What about remembering window position?
              That can't be 1%.
              Not for the application to ask for, but for the compositor to provide.
              ie not a setting of the application (open me at these coordinates), but of the compositor (open main window of application $xyz at these coordinates).
              The 1% is yakuake (not a window per se), desktop shells (panels etc), presentation software* (which screen is primary -- on which do I show presentation, on which notes), and possibly some more I'm not thinking of.

              *possibly some games, if I remember correctly, Supreme Commander had a very interesting multiscreen mode.

              Comment

              • Serafean
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 614

                #47
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post

                Yes, thank you. Just ignore some of my later posts, they were starting to get a bit unhinged from reality. I do appreciate the correction.
                Is it by any chance this bug? https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=479694
                Reading through Nate Graham's summary, this popped up.

                Comment

                • Weasel
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2017
                  • 4512

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Serafean View Post
                  A privacy conscious developer. If an app knows where it is drawn, that implies it knows about monitor resolution,size and screen configuration. That's a fingerprinting technique right there.
                  The only program I know of (ignoring desktop shells) that I see having a legitimate case for knowing screen configuration is yakuake (drop down terminals/things in general) That's the 1%.
                  But everything you said impacts the user, and you are not his mom. He can decide if he wants his apps sandboxed or not.

                  Comment

                  • Weasel
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2017
                    • 4512

                    #49
                    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
                    And, yet, even sandboxed apps can still fingerprint your system based on that kind of information. Anything that can connect to the internet can fingerprint you. That's especially true when the WM is based on X.org where a lot of system information is freely shared because it was from a time when we weren't always connected so security first wasn't paramount.

                    Would it have been better if I had simply said "Apps, by default, don't need to know any of that"?

                    Like... something local, custom written, and can potentially be ran as root? *ouch* I strained my eyes rolling them so hard at that one.
                    Yeah, Xorg has no privacy/sandboxing whatsoever (except the extension nobody uses because it's broken). But functionality trumps security.

                    You can have it both ways, but Wayland decided to have it only one way, the other way. Which makes it unusable.

                    Comment

                    • Weasel
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2017
                      • 4512

                      #50
                      Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
                      Then talk to the window manager from your app, problem solved?
                      Tell it what? Crapland doesn't allow it to do those things, so if it has its own custom extension to deal with it, it's not Wayland, it's something different, extra. Different for each WM, not accounted to by the "standard" protocol.

                      Which only proves how shit Wayland is, doesn't it?

                      Comment

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