Ubuntu's X.Org Session Support Now Split Into Separate Package

[phoronix]

Phoronix: Ubuntu's X.Org Session Support Now Split Into Separate Package

Ahead of the now in-place Ubuntu 24.10 feature freeze, the Ubuntu GNOME X.Org session support was split off into its own separate binary Debian package from the main (default) Wayland session handling...

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-Split-X.Org-Session

[mtk0]

fedora 40 already makes you install plasma-workspace-x11 after a fresh OS install in order to get KDE over X. yet the wayland plasma session doesn't support any session persistence. native wayland clients can't save their positions and sizes. i don't get it. do they think this is close to being ready for prod?

[duby229]

Oh yeah, and in fact they'll tell you it's a great feature! Apparently apps aren't supposed to know where they are or what they look like. Apps can be drawn totally off screen for example...

They'll have you believe that they intended it to be this way, but I guarantee you it was actually the fact that these consequences of being overly simple were never even considered at all...

It's not hard to remember the fact that Wayland couldn't even support minimize and the argument was that is how it should be. And then it took literally a decade to fix it...Yeah, minimize!!!

Wayland has at least a hundred other examples like this, no shit ..

[spicfoo]

fedora 40 already makes you install plasma-workspace-x11 after a fresh OS install in order to get KDE over X. yet the wayland plasma session doesn't support any session persistence. native wayland clients can't save their positions and sizes. i don't get it. do they think this is close to being ready for prod?

These are listed as known issues in https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Way...ificant_Issues

Fedora 40 appears to have backported some basic support from 6.1 however

https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/c/d03958da910f3ba08c531e7569ff40c19ca2f045?branch=f40

[Serafean]

Oh yeah, and in fact they'll tell you it's a great feature! Apparently apps aren't supposed to know where they are or what they look like. Apps can be drawn totally off screen for example...

That is correct. 99% of apps have no business knowing where they're drawn.
Clients deciding where they're drawn results in hilarious situations, especially when screen configurations change between runs. Let the WM decide of placement, it'll do a better job...

[uid313]

Will uninstalling the ubuntu-session-xsession package also remove XWayland?

[duby229]

That is correct. 99% of apps have no business knowing where they're drawn.
Clients deciding where they're drawn results in hilarious situations, especially when screen configurations change between runs. Let the WM decide of placement, it'll do a better job...

If the compositor had a mechanism to make the app aware of the current screen layout then that wouldn't even be a problem... And once again the problem here is that Wayland is too simplistic...

It can't do something that literally everything everywhere does for everyone and then somehow that is anyone else's fault...

[spicfoo]

Will uninstalling the ubuntu-session-xsession package also remove XWayland?

No. It is just the session file, nothing to do with XWayland. These are entirely separate software components

[Serafean]

If the compositor had a mechanism to make the app aware of the current screen layout then that wouldn't even be a problem... And once again the problem here is that Wayland is too simplistic...

It can't do something that literally everything everywhere does for everyone and then somehow that is anyone else's fault...

Actually it would still be a problem, because it would require every app to handle correctly every possible corner case, and that is just not feasible.
I agree that a mechanism to open windows at last known position is needed, but it is not for every app to handle, and still is a feature of the compositor.
Also that is why CSD is just plain stupid: if a compositor were to implement a feature like "lock window to this location", the place where to logically interact with it is in the title bar... Or theoretically a menubar item that is provided by the compositor via some IPC (as is the "Window" item on MacOS).


This is my opinion, mostly based on seeing parts of apps getting rendered on wrong screens and other weird places, precisely because they use their own rendering toolkit/logic which thought "it knew better". In my job we're guilty of it too, the bugs are really funny, and hard to fix.

[Weasel]

That is correct. 99% of apps have no business knowing where they're drawn.

And who the fuck are you to decide that?

Did you ask "99%" of app devs?