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GNOME OS Working On A New Installer & Other Enhancements To Make It More Practical

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  • pparker53
    replied
    Originally posted by Electric-Gecko View Post
    The sense I get from long-time Linux users and developers is that Gnome and GTK were well-liked and appreciated back before the 3.0 days, but then the developers of them got really insular and turned the Gnome desktop into something radical that few others liked, and then made unnecessary and poorly-received changes to GTK. It's unfortunate that they went from being the de-facto standard of Desktop Linux to mishandling their role as developers of widely-used software. I don't know anything about their decision-making structure, so I don't know how they could have went in this direction. I would hope that an organization giving them massive funding such as the Sovereign Tech Fund would try to make them more accountable. Maybe this will happen as the STF becomes more mature.
    oh wow if gnome was so bad it wouldn't be the default on so many distros i's been 13 years from 3.0 lol not perfect but still the prettiest DE to lots of people with the least effort sure some people dont like it but many switched to gnome from other ssystems
    Last edited by pparker53; 22 May 2024, 12:31 AM.

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  • Electric-Gecko
    replied
    I'm really happy to find out about Germany's Sovereign Tech Fund. For years I've wanted goverments to have something like this to fund open-source software.

    It looks like Germany is at least starting to have the right approach to investing in tech, not like the US who pours millions of dollars into development of technology that gets patented. Of course, I'm not surprised to see some drama over which projects are chosen, but this organization appears to be rather new. Their approach might change over the years. I don't think it's a bad idea to provide some funding to projects that some look down on, such as Gnome. I would hope that the funding would come with some goals over what the project should achieve to make it useful, but I'm not demanding that until the organization is more mature.

    I have been using KDE Plasma as my desktop for years, and have been largely happy with it. I haven't tried Gnome for awhile, but it was too bare-bones last time I tried Gnome 3. I started using Linux only after Gnome 3 came out.

    While I like Plasma, I don't have a firm stance of Qt vs GTK. I found Qt very nice to work with in C++ using Qt creator last time I tried doing that, so Qt is really nice to work with if you follow their intended workflow using C++. But I am now a D programmer, and D doesn't support multiple-inheritance, which Qt uses heavily, so I might need to choose GTK when I make a desktop application, even though it would be nice to get the luxuries of using Qt.

    The sense I get from long-time Linux users and developers is that Gnome and GTK were well-liked and appreciated back before the 3.0 days, but then the developers of them got really insular and turned the Gnome desktop into something radical that few others liked, and then made unnecessary and poorly-received changes to GTK. It's unfortunate that they went from being the de-facto standard of Desktop Linux to mishandling their role as developers of widely-used software. I don't know anything about their decision-making structure, so I don't know how they could have went in this direction. I would hope that an organization giving them massive funding such as the Sovereign Tech Fund would try to make them more accountable. Maybe this will happen as the STF becomes more mature.

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  • rabcor
    replied
    Gnome? Practical? I thought april fools was already over though...

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  • pparker53
    replied
    Very cool to see this. Maybe they could consider doing what KDE Neon did and build a "GNOME as GNOME intended" which has all of the other benefits of Ubuntu which is a great distro, despite the hate.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Me: Trucks from the 1980s don't have backup radar systems.
    Sorry to say for where I am this is not right answer.

    Toyota introduced ultrasonic Back Sonar on the 1982 Toyota Corona, offering it until 1988.
    Insurance companies here pushed for backup radar systems starting in the 1980s on trucks. Yes these were third party fitted the early ones was the Toyota Back Sonar from the Toyota Corona Jerry rigged to trucks. This reduced trucks backing into docks.

    Yes you find 1970 trucks with backup radar added as third party. It possible for a person to have driven a long trucks of different ages and all of them have reversing radar with some fitted at factory and some fitted third party. So it is kind of important if you are asking a person to drive a car or a truck and it does not have reversing sensor system of some form be clear it missing.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
    But in the end, I think it's just going to be an unsolved issue where Gnome is considered the black sheep for a long time to come. Linux developers rarely agree on anything, let alone competing developers. Gnome isn't going to change because, well, they're Gnome. They have a vision and they stick to it, which is commendable. And the rest of the Linux ecosystem isn't going to suddenly change just to accommodate Gnome, who is well known to be... not a "bad actor" in the space, but rather an obtuse one to work with sometimes. So bad result either way.
    The issue is simple. You have an application that is designed for server side decorations and you have compositor that is client side decorations only things don't work...


    I have gone and opened a issue in the right project lets see what happens.

    I went though the mailing list and issue history of libwayland-client no one has ever asked if libwayland-client should have the means to do client side decorations.

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  • skeevy420
    replied
    Originally posted by joaquinvacas View Post

    Goddamn, people nowadays even get confused by switching from Windows 10 to 11, it's just Windows 10 with makeup!
    Switching desktop environments is like driving a new vehicle. It takes a minute to get adjusted to the controls in different places, but it's still a vehicle and behaves mostly the same so you outta be able to figure it out and go on with life. That's how it should be, anyways.

    Me: How come you backed up into the wall?

    Them: I was backing up and the radar didn't beep to warn me about it.

    Me: Trucks from the 1980s don't have backup radar systems.

    I say that and I can't tell y'all how many times I've had to "fix" a TV due to a misbehaving app and then have the conversation about how modern Smart TVs don't actually power off so the universal fix of "turn it off and turn it back on" involves a trip to the settings menu to trigger a reboot cycle while using a smartphone's display to describe how a screen can power off while the system is still running. The kicker is if I go and disable standby to force it to always power on and off, the TVs then take too long and they annoy people. That was my Dad's TV the day before yesterday when Hulu quit showing video output.

    Dad: But I turned it off and back on?

    Me: With the remote or through the settings menu?

    Dad: What do you mean?

    Me in my head: We've had this conversation 15 times with 3 different Smart TVs. FUUUUCCCCCKKKK MEEEEEE

    Anyways, no matter how well engineered a product is, how convenient they try to make it, or how many times you've tried to help someone with the same issue but with different interfaces, it doesn't really matter if they don't care to learn or don't pay attention to what they're doing.

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  • Daktyl198
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Daktyl198 basically there are two routes open here to do the CSD gnome is demarding.
    1) have every toolkit support CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor bar libwayland-client. This is going to be uphill battle with lots of code duplication with lots more bugs,
    2) have libwayland-client proxy code provide CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor. This is implement exactly once then all other toolkits that don't want to implement CSD don't have to.
    That was a great write up. There is, of course, the 3rd option... which is Gnome supporting SSDs

    But in the end, I think it's just going to be an unsolved issue where Gnome is considered the black sheep for a long time to come. Linux developers rarely agree on anything, let alone competing developers. Gnome isn't going to change because, well, they're Gnome. They have a vision and they stick to it, which is commendable. And the rest of the Linux ecosystem isn't going to suddenly change just to accommodate Gnome, who is well known to be... not a "bad actor" in the space, but rather an obtuse one to work with sometimes. So bad result either way.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
    libwayland-client is not a toolkit, it's merely a library to make talking to wayland compositors easier, right?

    No ]libwayland-client is a toolkit. Core parts of Wayland robustness so a Wayland compositor can terminate and application not have it data magically gone are in fact implemented in libwayland-client.

    Libwayland-client is in fact a proxy between application code and Wayland protocol. This is why it a perfect point to perform an buffer alteration. The buffer sent over the wire to the wayland compositor can be different to the buffer the general application code sees at the libwayland-client point..

    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
    In theory, most application developers won't even use it directly, as it'll be handled by their actual toolkit.
    That is not the factor here. All toolkits bar rust ones use libwayland-client. This is a single point.

    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
    ​especially if Gnome is the only desktop that requires CSD.
    This could be a chicken and egg problem. The reason we don't have more wayland compositors that are pure CSD could be that libwayland-client does not provide a CSD for application and application toolkits that don't do their own CSD,

    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
    I see that it adds a bit of complexity, but clearly it's not too much. Every compositor on Linux that I know of, except Mutter but including tiny window managers, supports SSD as well as CSD. I don't think removing a single buffer of complexity is worth the downsides of going full CSD without a unified toolkit.
    There is something else here. That tiny window manager code in every Wayland compositor that not gnome is extra code where the Wayland compositor could have a defect and crash or cause security exploit. There are considerations for failure here.

    Daktyl198 there is a single point where CSD could be implemented to get everything,

    Smithay's toolkit for writing wayland clients. Contribute to Smithay/client-toolkit development by creating an account on GitHub.


    I was wrong on rust turns out rust client applications using Smithay also use libwayland-client.

    Daktyl198 basically there are two routes open here to do the CSD gnome is demarding.
    1) have every toolkit support CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor bar libwayland-client. This is going to be uphill battle with lots of code duplication with lots more bugs,
    2) have libwayland-client proxy code provide CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor. This is implement exactly once then all other toolkits that don't want to implement CSD don't have to.

    Number 2 is not been considered as a solid option because lot of the arguments you are attempting. Both Windows and Macos implement their default CSD in area that would be exact match to libwayland-client.

    This is why write do as MS Windows or MacOS equals you should be pushing for libwayland-client to be altered to add a default CSD that can be turned off because that the change that required to make Wayland design match MS Windows and MacOS design for how CSD is handled.

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  • joaquinvacas
    replied
    Originally posted by waxhead View Post

    Stop hating hate... You must look at hate as a positive thing (seriously).
    Too many people easily gets offended by hate and therefore hate hating. Ergo they become a hater themselves.

    Hate is (also) very constructive if you can break it down and figure out what people really are complaining about. Usually that is not a too difficult task since hating is a form of honesty that reveals a lot about the person and/or problems the person are addressing.

    Complaining about things is the very reason humans develop. Wrapping things into politically correct phrases usually only delay the process until it is possible to figure out what the heck the complaint is really about.

    Personally , I see hate as (mostly) constructive and also humorous as well. The second you get offended or repulsed by hate your focus is solemnity (which is absolutely useless by the way) and don't manage to be focused on the problem itself , but the way people are presenting the problem - which in my opinion is far worse.
    I do care about complaining but in an respectful way, exposing what's good and what's not that good so the other part understands the purpose of your claims.

    I think education, good talk, reaches further heights than just complaining over and over and offer things that do not fix the issue but ensures you've made the best choice and therefore, your choice is the best for everyone else which is, from your pov, mistaken.

    By "you" I'm not referring at you at all but any 3rd person.

    Anyhow, I complain a lot, about everything, I consider myself too much picky sometimes, but what bothers me is to try to read some interesting comments and instead got a bunch of "why [insert any software] is a piece of sh*t and why replacing it with [insert another software] fixed my problems"

    It's just too much predictable.

    Well, my post tended to be an humourous representation of the average comment, so expected to not bother at all.

    ​​

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