Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

GNOME OS Working On A New Installer & Other Enhancements To Make It More Practical

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by oleid View Post

    Why must we have posts like these on every GNOME news?

    It's like this joke:

    How do you know if a person doesn't like GNOME?
    - they tell you
    The joke is somewhat irrelevant. I *did* like Gnome when it was sane and before they ruined it (the way I see it).

    http://www.dirtcellar.net

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by waxhead View Post

      The joke is somewhat irrelevant. I *did* like Gnome when it was sane and before they ruined it (the way I see it).
      Oh, I see, so it's personal. That explains it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by joaquinvacas View Post
        Stop with the hate, there is place for everyone.
        ​​​​
        Stop hating hate... You must look at hate as a positive thing (seriously).
        Too many people easily gets offended by hate and therefore hate hating. Ergo they become a hater themselves.

        Hate is (also) very constructive if you can break it down and figure out what people really are complaining about. Usually that is not a too difficult task since hating is a form of honesty that reveals a lot about the person and/or problems the person are addressing.

        Complaining about things is the very reason humans develop. Wrapping things into politically correct phrases usually only delay the process until it is possible to figure out what the heck the complaint is really about.

        Personally , I see hate as (mostly) constructive and also humorous as well. The second you get offended or repulsed by hate your focus is solemnity (which is absolutely useless by the way) and don't manage to be focused on the problem itself , but the way people are presenting the problem - which in my opinion is far worse.


        http://www.dirtcellar.net

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by oleid View Post

          Oh, I see, so it's personal. That explains it.
          Oh yes it is!. Gnome WAS an excellent little desktop and they ruined it.
          These days I am all about XFCE, but glad things like Mate and Trinity exists as well.

          http://www.dirtcellar.net

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            Does Wayland have a unified standard toolkit for applications and toolkits? The answer is in fact yes for everything bar rust applications. This would be libwayland-client​.

            Does unified standard toolkit libwayland-client provide a default CSD the answer is no as this is the problem.
            libwayland-client is not a toolkit, it's merely a library to make talking to wayland compositors easier, right? In theory, most application developers won't even use it directly, as it'll be handled by their actual toolkit. libwayland-client shouldn't be linking to external libraries and messing with window decorations when that's not it's purpose, especially if Gnome is the only desktop that requires CSD. The only way you're going to ensure all Linux toolkits provide a CSD by default is if other desktops go CSD only, which just isn't going to happen for various reasons, including that toolkits don't provide a CSD by default. Chicken and egg problem.

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            Its number of buffers compositor has to handle. This is why macos and Windows are CSD as well. So if it CSD you have 1 buffer at the compositor. If it SSD at compositor you have 2 buffer 1 buffer without the decorations and 1 buffer where the compositor has added the decorations..
            I see that it adds a bit of complexity, but clearly it's not too much. Every compositor on Linux that I know of, except Mutter but including tiny window managers, supports SSD as well as CSD. I don't think removing a single buffer of complexity is worth the downsides of going full CSD without a unified toolkit.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by waxhead View Post

              Stop hating hate... You must look at hate as a positive thing (seriously).
              Too many people easily gets offended by hate and therefore hate hating. Ergo they become a hater themselves.

              Hate is (also) very constructive if you can break it down and figure out what people really are complaining about. Usually that is not a too difficult task since hating is a form of honesty that reveals a lot about the person and/or problems the person are addressing.

              Complaining about things is the very reason humans develop. Wrapping things into politically correct phrases usually only delay the process until it is possible to figure out what the heck the complaint is really about.

              Personally , I see hate as (mostly) constructive and also humorous as well. The second you get offended or repulsed by hate your focus is solemnity (which is absolutely useless by the way) and don't manage to be focused on the problem itself , but the way people are presenting the problem - which in my opinion is far worse.
              I do care about complaining but in an respectful way, exposing what's good and what's not that good so the other part understands the purpose of your claims.

              I think education, good talk, reaches further heights than just complaining over and over and offer things that do not fix the issue but ensures you've made the best choice and therefore, your choice is the best for everyone else which is, from your pov, mistaken.

              By "you" I'm not referring at you at all but any 3rd person.

              Anyhow, I complain a lot, about everything, I consider myself too much picky sometimes, but what bothers me is to try to read some interesting comments and instead got a bunch of "why [insert any software] is a piece of sh*t and why replacing it with [insert another software] fixed my problems"

              It's just too much predictable.

              Well, my post tended to be an humourous representation of the average comment, so expected to not bother at all.

              ​​

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                libwayland-client is not a toolkit, it's merely a library to make talking to wayland compositors easier, right?

                No ]libwayland-client is a toolkit. Core parts of Wayland robustness so a Wayland compositor can terminate and application not have it data magically gone are in fact implemented in libwayland-client.

                Libwayland-client is in fact a proxy between application code and Wayland protocol. This is why it a perfect point to perform an buffer alteration. The buffer sent over the wire to the wayland compositor can be different to the buffer the general application code sees at the libwayland-client point..

                Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                In theory, most application developers won't even use it directly, as it'll be handled by their actual toolkit.
                That is not the factor here. All toolkits bar rust ones use libwayland-client. This is a single point.

                Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                ​especially if Gnome is the only desktop that requires CSD.
                This could be a chicken and egg problem. The reason we don't have more wayland compositors that are pure CSD could be that libwayland-client does not provide a CSD for application and application toolkits that don't do their own CSD,

                Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                I see that it adds a bit of complexity, but clearly it's not too much. Every compositor on Linux that I know of, except Mutter but including tiny window managers, supports SSD as well as CSD. I don't think removing a single buffer of complexity is worth the downsides of going full CSD without a unified toolkit.
                There is something else here. That tiny window manager code in every Wayland compositor that not gnome is extra code where the Wayland compositor could have a defect and crash or cause security exploit. There are considerations for failure here.

                Daktyl198 there is a single point where CSD could be implemented to get everything,

                Smithay's toolkit for writing wayland clients. Contribute to Smithay/client-toolkit development by creating an account on GitHub.


                I was wrong on rust turns out rust client applications using Smithay also use libwayland-client.

                Daktyl198 basically there are two routes open here to do the CSD gnome is demarding.
                1) have every toolkit support CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor bar libwayland-client. This is going to be uphill battle with lots of code duplication with lots more bugs,
                2) have libwayland-client proxy code provide CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor. This is implement exactly once then all other toolkits that don't want to implement CSD don't have to.

                Number 2 is not been considered as a solid option because lot of the arguments you are attempting. Both Windows and Macos implement their default CSD in area that would be exact match to libwayland-client.

                This is why write do as MS Windows or MacOS equals you should be pushing for libwayland-client to be altered to add a default CSD that can be turned off because that the change that required to make Wayland design match MS Windows and MacOS design for how CSD is handled.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  Daktyl198 basically there are two routes open here to do the CSD gnome is demarding.
                  1) have every toolkit support CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor bar libwayland-client. This is going to be uphill battle with lots of code duplication with lots more bugs,
                  2) have libwayland-client proxy code provide CSD for SSD style applications when on a CSD only wayland compositor. This is implement exactly once then all other toolkits that don't want to implement CSD don't have to.
                  That was a great write up. There is, of course, the 3rd option... which is Gnome supporting SSDs

                  But in the end, I think it's just going to be an unsolved issue where Gnome is considered the black sheep for a long time to come. Linux developers rarely agree on anything, let alone competing developers. Gnome isn't going to change because, well, they're Gnome. They have a vision and they stick to it, which is commendable. And the rest of the Linux ecosystem isn't going to suddenly change just to accommodate Gnome, who is well known to be... not a "bad actor" in the space, but rather an obtuse one to work with sometimes. So bad result either way.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by joaquinvacas View Post

                    Goddamn, people nowadays even get confused by switching from Windows 10 to 11, it's just Windows 10 with makeup!
                    Switching desktop environments is like driving a new vehicle. It takes a minute to get adjusted to the controls in different places, but it's still a vehicle and behaves mostly the same so you outta be able to figure it out and go on with life. That's how it should be, anyways.

                    Me: How come you backed up into the wall?

                    Them: I was backing up and the radar didn't beep to warn me about it.

                    Me: Trucks from the 1980s don't have backup radar systems.

                    I say that and I can't tell y'all how many times I've had to "fix" a TV due to a misbehaving app and then have the conversation about how modern Smart TVs don't actually power off so the universal fix of "turn it off and turn it back on" involves a trip to the settings menu to trigger a reboot cycle while using a smartphone's display to describe how a screen can power off while the system is still running. The kicker is if I go and disable standby to force it to always power on and off, the TVs then take too long and they annoy people. That was my Dad's TV the day before yesterday when Hulu quit showing video output.

                    Dad: But I turned it off and back on?

                    Me: With the remote or through the settings menu?

                    Dad: What do you mean?

                    Me in my head: We've had this conversation 15 times with 3 different Smart TVs. FUUUUCCCCCKKKK MEEEEEE

                    Anyways, no matter how well engineered a product is, how convenient they try to make it, or how many times you've tried to help someone with the same issue but with different interfaces, it doesn't really matter if they don't care to learn or don't pay attention to what they're doing.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                      But in the end, I think it's just going to be an unsolved issue where Gnome is considered the black sheep for a long time to come. Linux developers rarely agree on anything, let alone competing developers. Gnome isn't going to change because, well, they're Gnome. They have a vision and they stick to it, which is commendable. And the rest of the Linux ecosystem isn't going to suddenly change just to accommodate Gnome, who is well known to be... not a "bad actor" in the space, but rather an obtuse one to work with sometimes. So bad result either way.
                      The issue is simple. You have an application that is designed for server side decorations and you have compositor that is client side decorations only things don't work...


                      I have gone and opened a issue in the right project lets see what happens.

                      I went though the mailing list and issue history of libwayland-client no one has ever asked if libwayland-client should have the means to do client side decorations.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X