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Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Not really, because a very large proportion of fedora installs will be inside VMs that are using the host GPU drivers, I have like 7 different Fedora VM disks, they all use Oracles openGL driver guest addons for desktop GPU acceleration on nvidia cards.
    In that case none of those images are doing AI or HPC right because. Also you can spot the Virtualbox VM guest additions. This is another thing you might see users do a lot but is absolutely sure less than 1 percent of the user base.

    You need to stop assuming what Fedora users in general will be doing mSparks your guesses are way off. If you look at fedora systems the tools to make progressive web applications and work with databases the like are very present.

    Fedora usage in VM turns out to be very low. Bare metal installs are dominate. Maybe this has something todo with Centos and other so called free enterprise options being dominantly installed in VM.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Also, as some 85% of PCs only have an Intel GPU in them, 30% running nvidia on fedora is considerably more than windows.
    Do note that 30% is not just Nvidia that is parties using like ZFS file system and the like. Yes over 15% of fedora users have OpenZFS stuff installed. Remember I said that 30% is upper-limit as in number of Nvidia GPU will not be 30%. So there every possibility there is no more Nvidia usage on Fedora than Windows. Debian and Ubuntu related OS there is likely less Nvidia usage than Windows.

    Yes Microsoft asks Nvidia for drivers than don't hardlock Nvidia first says no to Microsoft then due to them not having enough market share Microsoft says simple if you don't we will not sign your drivers then Nvidia gives and implements the driver restarting bit. Yes that how that goes down for Microsoft to get that feature. I am sorry the only way you get quality drivers out of Nvidia is play hard ball.

    Something to be aware of as well lets say we go back in the numbers to 2013 when DRI3/DMABUF appears back then 80-90% of Linux users generally had kernel-devel equals installed in their distributions. Debian/Ubuntu.... area has declined way more than Fedora but Fedora has declined a lot in the usage of third party drivers.

    Back in 2016 when Nvidia did the eglstreams wayland even then there was still possible enough possible market share to push things. It is something else to be aware of we are still seeing year on year decline in the install of kernel-devel packages.

    Redhat saying their customers wanting open source and mainlined drivers is no joke. This is a trend across all Linux Distributions. Mainlining graphics driver its going to have to support KMS,GBM,DMABUF like it or not. This is exactly like how Microsoft sets rules on what features graphics driver have to have and if Nvidia does not obey Microsoft just refuses to sign their drivers and black list their drivers until they do.

    Nvidia on Linux has got away without being a team player and that is serous-ally coming to the end. Yes Nvidia users are going to get caught in you will be a team player or else push and like it or not Distributions are not going to care.

    Something you have not considered that is down right scary half of the x.org X11 server code for bare metal only has a single user being Nvidia. Yes Nvidia migrate to the newer not deprecated interfaces would equal being able to delete half the x.org X11 server baremetal code base. Distributions have quite a bit of a maintenance problem coming from Nvidia drivers that they can get rid of if they can pull Nvidia into line.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Of course kernel-devel could be on fedora systems of other reasons than Nvidia drivers but that gives you upper limit.
    Not really, because a very large proportion of fedora installs will be inside VMs that are using the host GPU drivers, I have like 7 different Fedora VM disks, they all use Oracles openGL driver guest addons for desktop GPU acceleration on nvidia cards.

    Also, as some 85% of PCs only have an Intel GPU in them, 30% running nvidia on fedora is considerably more than windows.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    only 5% of fedora users have kernel-devel installed? (the only dependancy for nvidia, android studio has none, its ships with its own jvm and pulls updates directly from the google repositories)
    find that very hard to believe. sounds more likely you think there are fedora repo dependencies that dont exist.


    Required libraries for 64-bit machines
    If you are running a 64-bit version of Ubuntu, you need to install some 32-bit libraries with the following command:
    sudo apt-get install libc6:i386 libncurses5:i386 libstdc++6:i386 lib32z1 libbz2-1.0:i386


    If you are running 64-bit Fedora, the command is:
    sudo yum install zlib.i686 ncurses-libs.i686 bzip2-libs.i686
    Android studio does have dependencies. Having thing 32 bit dependencies in fact made it simpler to detect. Proton and steam client ships with it own complete 32 bit library set independent to distribution. Also spot the 32 bit libraries wine don't use there is a library that is android studio dependency that insanely rare to be found installed in it 32 bit version but you almost never(less than 1 percent of systems) but find the 64 bit version not installed on a Fedora system is basically unheard of.

    Nvidia CUDA has more requirements than just kernel-devel same with other HPC/AI parts.

    kernel-devel is on about 30% of Fedora systems. Debian and related systems that falls to under 15%. Of course kernel-devel could be on fedora systems of other reasons than Nvidia drivers but that gives you upper limit.

    Nvidia install documentation is not nice enough to list the dependencies.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    don't have any of the parts
    Wrote that for key reason. I was not just looking for Android development parts or AI/HPC direct parts I was also looking at the dependencies those parts need to be installed so they can be installed so it did not matter if the user was using newer versions or not I would be counting them.

    5% is the max possible doing that kind of work with Fedora. This is the problem you never have gone looking for the numbers. I was also quite surprise how low that number is I was expect to see like 20-30 percent.

    This is why the counter arguments against Wayland failing so badly with those making distributions. Those making distributions are looking at what packages users are using to allocate developers and what kind of work they have to be doing to optimize their testing systems.

    Basically attempting to make a argument for a distribution not to do something you need to understand the metrics they have so you don't go and say something that by the metrics they have is just straight up stupid. Distributions would not be planing todo something if they had metrics that said this was going to harm 85% of their user base.

    Now if it 15% or less that going to be harmed basically lets go ahead. Yes Fedora 40 looking to drop X11 support completely says by their metrics that going to effect less than 15% of their userbase. When you dig into the numbers way less than 15% of their userbase.
    only 5% of fedora users have kernel-devel installed? (the only dependancy for nvidia, android studio has none, its ships with its own jvm and pulls updates directly from the google repositories)
    find that very hard to believe. sounds more likely you think there are fedora repo dependencies that dont exist.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    I'm surprised even 5% of Fedora users are on the 5 year old android stuff that fedora ships. Thats really high considering google and nvidia put out updates and fixes direct almost on a weekly basis
    don't have any of the parts
    Wrote that for key reason. I was not just looking for Android development parts or AI/HPC direct parts I was also looking at the dependencies those parts need to be installed so they can be installed so it did not matter if the user was using newer versions or not I would be counting them.

    5% is the max possible doing that kind of work with Fedora. This is the problem you never have gone looking for the numbers. I was also quite surprise how low that number is I was expect to see like 20-30 percent.

    This is why the counter arguments against Wayland failing so badly with those making distributions. Those making distributions are looking at what packages users are using to allocate developers and what kind of work they have to be doing to optimize their testing systems.

    Basically attempting to make a argument for a distribution not to do something you need to understand the metrics they have so you don't go and say something that by the metrics they have is just straight up stupid. Distributions would not be planing todo something if they had metrics that said this was going to harm 85% of their user base.

    Now if it 15% or less that going to be harmed basically lets go ahead. Yes Fedora 40 looking to drop X11 support completely says by their metrics that going to effect less than 15% of their userbase. When you dig into the numbers way less than 15% of their userbase.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Package download stats don't agree with that. 95% of fedora installs don't have any of the parts do AI/HPC or Android development.
    I'm surprised even 5% of Fedora users are on the 5 year old android stuff that fedora ships. Thats really high considering google and nvidia put out updates and fixes direct almost on a weekly basis

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Fedora is generally used by experienced developers with some kind of red hat background who use Linux for the "day job" generally AI, HPC and Android dev mostly nvidia for the gpu acceleration.
    Package download stats don't agree with that. 95% of fedora installs don't have any of the parts do AI/HPC or Android development. Less than 30% of Fedora installs have Nvidia drivers. Please note Fedora Nvidia driver count is higher than other distributions. Debian is less than 6% have Nvidia drivers installed. Yes times roughly by 2 based of of xorg-server installed 12% of debian/ubuntu desktop users have a Nvidia card and this is back to normal levels for a Linux distribution.

    I see your problem your argument is based on a stack of very bad assumes.

    Once you start looking at Linux distribution stats on packages Nvidia usage on Linux is not that popular. AMD and Intel GPU usage is way more popular.

    Nvidia is not the dominate GPU acceleration on Linux. Its kind of surprise with Nvidia compute market share right.

    Yes 70% of fedora uses are AMD/Intel graphics exclusively. Yes Debian and Ubuntu is like 85% are AMD/Intel graphics exclusively. Ubuntu/Debian you have to allow for exclusive raspberry pi and so on graphics for the difference.

    mSparks you really do need to get you hands on installed package stats and start reading them. They start telling very different story to everything you have been presuming.

    Remember how you have been saying AMD and Intel are garbage please remember now that majority of distribution Linux desktop users that is all they have.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    You have just ignored the majority. The biggest GPU vendor by far is in fact Intel. 90%+ of PC produced every year are for the business market majority of these don't have dgpus. 80% of x86 computers don't have a GPU and depend on igpu or APU with the majority being igpu in general.

    Nvidia has 80% of the dgpu market that only makes up 20% of the market in fact. So a over all 15% installed system presence.

    Intel 8.8 percent has all their GPU and Chipset bugs under the same number from Microsoft. Only one vendor when Vista released happened to have Vista approved drivers that was Intel. That is also 80% of the machines that shipped with Vista had Intel graphics and no dgpu. So yes ATI and Nvidia in the vista capable released numbers have horrible number of crashes.

    Steam survey numbers for Linux users when you subtract the steam deck there is more AMD and Intel users than Nvidia users with Linux Installs. The 5 times more Nvidia users don't apply once you get into Linux Desktop users for dGPU. At best Nvidia and AMD dGPU users are equal on the Linux desktop at worse Nvidia is the minority. Yes everything basically flips on head once you get into Linux Desktop stats vs Windows Desktop stats and they are both X86 platforms.
    indeed. And gpu acceleration on wayland doesnt work for Intel uses at all. they are generally just fine with that, chances are it isnt running any display server.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Nvidia users on Linux don't have the market share they think have. The real market share on the Linux Desktop says that parties like Redhat should not care about Nvidia users issues at all.
    depends what you mean by Linux.
    Fedora is generally used by experienced developers with some kind of red hat background who use Linux for the "day job" generally AI, HPC and Android dev mostly nvidia for the gpu acceleration.
    Android is by far the most popular not just linux distribution but operating system in use today, on billions upon billions of devices, that will likely never adopt wayland, mostly qualcom chips aiui, with a hint of nvidia tegra.
    SteamOS is exclusively AMD, but they dont even know fedora exists.
    Lots of/most people install linux on old PCs to use as a home server, if they run a display server at all they dont care how well it works as long as they can open firefox for a few minutes to read about how to fix whatever broke. They probably got X11 forwarding up and running 3 or 4 years ago and waypipe will be fine - but instead of reporting bugs they either ignore them or distro hop. Fedora picked up a lot of ubuntu users escaping various old wayland bugs that way.
    Last edited by mSparks; 29 September 2023, 05:00 PM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    You sure that is not just the fact there are 5 times more Nvidia users than AMD to actually report bugs, rather than AMD being less buggy.
    You have just ignored the majority. The biggest GPU vendor by far is in fact Intel. 90%+ of PC produced every year are for the business market majority of these don't have dgpus. 80% of x86 computers don't have a GPU and depend on igpu or APU with the majority being igpu in general.

    Nvidia has 80% of the dgpu market that only makes up 20% of the market in fact. So a over all 15% installed system presence.

    Intel 8.8 percent has all their GPU and Chipset bugs under the same number from Microsoft. Only one vendor when Vista released happened to have Vista approved drivers that was Intel. That is also 80% of the machines that shipped with Vista had Intel graphics and no dgpu. So yes ATI and Nvidia in the vista capable released numbers have horrible number of crashes.

    Steam survey numbers for Linux users when you subtract the steam deck there is more AMD and Intel users than Nvidia users with Linux Installs. The 5 times more Nvidia users don't apply once you get into Linux Desktop users for dGPU. At best Nvidia and AMD dGPU users are equal on the Linux desktop at worse Nvidia is the minority. Yes everything basically flips on head once you get into Linux Desktop stats vs Windows Desktop stats and they are both X86 platforms.

    Nvidia users on Linux don't have the market share they think have. The real market share on the Linux Desktop says that parties like Redhat should not care about Nvidia users issues at all.
    Last edited by oiaohm; 29 September 2023, 12:21 PM.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    So Linux world doing a change to Wayland and Nvidia users having a bad time this is Nvidia being the same pain in the but they have been for over 2 decades now. As history of Nvidia interactions with Microsoft says we should just ignore Nvidia users issues because in time Nvidia will get their but in order when they have to.
    You sure that is not just the fact there are 5 times more Nvidia users than AMD to actually report bugs, rather than AMD being less buggy.

    Because I get to see driver bug reports for AMD linux mac and windows and nvidia windows and linux.
    exlcuding macos, the AMD driver bugs are generally much more severe and numerous than NV, and hang around much longer.
    Last edited by mSparks; 29 September 2023, 11:58 AM.

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