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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Did other former popular RHEL clones like Oracle Linux, SUSE and
    Rocky Linux
    adopt scientific linux?.
    Except there is a problem. SUSE is not a RHEL clone and never has been.


    Do note how rockstor moves from RHEL based to SUSE based.

    What reason when SUSE is not a RHEL clone be offering to help out with OpenELA.

    Also 10million dollar one off investment into OpenELA by SUSE sounds like a lot. Until you wake up SUSE spends over 30 million dollars every 3 months on SUSE/OpenSUSE.

    mSparks the hard reality is OpenELA does not have enough cash of course SUSE is not going to give them enough cash. O you don't have the time to test that we just using the OpenSUSE version because that tested... Death by thousand cuts that the RHEL clones that join OpenELA will find themselves turned into SUSE clones in the end having to bow to a new overlord.

    Oracle Linux and Rocky Linux(CIQ) don't have enough developers to maintain a RHEL Linux clone without access to RHEL work. CIQ does not have enough money full top to-do it. Oracle has enough money to maintain a RHEL clone but convincing them to spend the money and employ developers I don't see this happening. Oracle is highly optimized on profit.

    The reality is out of the 3 parties backing OpenELA only one has upstream developers in KDE and Gnome and other key projects that Suse and they are not a RHEL clone. Suse will play along with OpenELA to expand their market share and only give OpenELA chump change.

    Scientific linux by cern and it usage in fact had more funding than OpenELA does. The question is how to Redhat make Scientific Linux and Centos life hell. Remember SUSE will not be past doing the same stunts. Yes do notice how many Suse clones have died a slow painful death from the link I included.

    Remember Suse is in it for the market dominance just as much as Redhat is.

    Suse logo itself is a warning. Did not notice the "chameleon". Yes alter appearances to get market share with core remaining Suse is Suse trait that they have included in their logo for everyone to see.

    I would have better hope for OpenELA if it was a true collective of RHEL clones. OpenELA has let a Cuckoo​ into the nest so between what redhat/IBM will do and what suse will do OpenELA is most likely doomed.
    Last edited by oiaohm; 11 October 2023, 04:05 AM.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Did other former popular RHEL clones like Oracle Linux, SUSE and
    Rocky Linux
    adopt scientific linux?
    Rocky Linux is an open enterprise Operating System designed to be 100% bug-for-bug compatible with Enterprise Linux.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    RHEL crushes these idea long term mostly due to the parties not having upstream development.
    CentOS was a better alternative. Now RedHat no longer controls what the definition of "EL" is they wont be crushing anything anymore.
    They made themselves largely irrelevant to the server and desktop markets.
    e.g.

    Enterprise Linux From Scratch. Contribute to maxbyte9p/elfs development by creating an account on GitHub.


    The only people using Redhat now are people in Redhat, and we already established they dont actually use it.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    openELA will be replacing RHEL.
    Have we seen this before.

    Its not a new idea mSparks. RHEL crushes these idea long term mostly due to the parties not having upstream development. Remember upstream development gives you access to the project security mailing list so allowing you to apply security patches ahead of everyone else.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Wayland will never replace X11. Its simply to poorly designed and resolving known issues far too slowly to ever be a serious contender to X11. The forthcoming mass exodus from FC40 will almost certainly be the last nail in its coffin.
    You know the person you quoted for Wayland having worse performance than X11 with nvidia. Guess what he just setup his laptops with KDE wayland with nvidia hardware.

    The problem here remember by FC40 you have zink in mesa3d that able to run xwayland with glamor. I don't think Nvidia provided drivers will be fixed by release of F40 but I don't think the defects will be a major problem either because the worse areas will be handled by Valve.

    So either Nvidia or Valve is going to fix most of the Nvidia user performance problems.

    This is where is gets horrible. Valve is funding zink and dxvk not for the Linux usage but because they need those under Windows so they can sell games to windows users that will not work with the vendor provided drivers for opengl and direct x. Yes vendor being AMD Intel and Nvidia. Valve has the market share to bother about dealing with the defective Nvidia driver problem.

    Valve is being fairly clear they want all opengl drivers to be mesa3d.

    Nvidia need to get the memo on Linux. What Nvidia does on Linux on windows would really be like lets go and provide a complete replacement to the DX graphics stack and ignore what Microsoft is doing. Nvidia did look at doing that at one point with Windows Vista and Microsoft made it clear do that no signed drivers for you ever again.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Someone meeting what you require does not mean it will be good.
    X11 is already good, very widely adopted by everyone who uses and develops for linux, and the only people complaining about it believe people will use a desktop environment that can't even track mouse movement accurately or move a window without completely crashing the machine - as long as you try and force them to.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    check out what the policies of the parties behind the project are.
    Perhaps you should do that rather than rely on whatever lies people told you about them.
    openELA will be replacing RHEL.
    Wayland will never replace X11. Its simply to poorly designed and resolving known issues far too slowly to ever be a serious contender to X11. The forthcoming mass exodus from FC40 will almost certainly be the last nail in its coffin.
    Last edited by mSparks; 06 October 2023, 06:46 AM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Very wishful, incorrect thinking. They are not dropping anything. They are now adding to everything.
    No that wishful thinking on your part. Key word is "requires" not wants. Xwayland allowed to to run X11 application with Nvidia hardware did it not. So you required X11 support xwayland does that. Someone meeting what you require does not mean it will be good.

    The truth is what I said like it or not Oracle and Suse and Rocky in fact all want to be rid of bare metal X11 server.

    OpenELA writes a lot of good sounding things until you notice weasel words and check out what the policies of the parties behind the project are.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    So Oracle and Suse going to drop X11 display server bare metal as well. .
    Very wishful, incorrect thinking. They are not dropping anything. They are now adding to everything.

    The truth is:
    OpenELA will host source code and become the shared repository for Enterprise Linux. This includes not only the base OS, but also possible feature additions, customization, and extra packages that the community requires. Each individual downstream project has the ability to build from any of these options, either bug-for-bug and 1:1 with the Enterprise Linux standard, or providing customizations and changes.

    This is the freedom that open source enables.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    well, Fedora use is going to be zero across the board once they drop support for the only usable, reliable display server.

    which is a shame, but unavoidable now I guess.
    So Oracle and Suse going to drop X11 display server bare metal as well. They don't have enough Nvidia users to justify X11 server either.

    Nvidia does see the writing on the wall as well but with the number of faults their drivers have I think it unlikely they well meet the dead line.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Database tools being present. Don't equal AI.



    Fedora not be of interest to gamers is not a new thing steam numbers have shown that for quite some time. Fedora package numbers also shows that.

    Debian/Ubuntu is around 15% Fedora around 30%. What percentage would be Arch. Arch is the other outlier where you see 80-90 percent with kernel development packages installed. Now that would be a place where Nvidia would have some weight.

    If I was betting based on package information would be 1/3-1/2 those with Nvidia cards running games by steam would be on Arch.

    As I said by Fedora package usage Fedora users appear quite boring lots of web development and general work stuff. Nothing fancy like HPC or AI development as your common fedora user. Of course there will be outliers.
    well, Fedora use is going to be zero across the board once they drop support for the only usable, reliable display server.

    which is a shame, but unavoidable now I guess.
    Last edited by mSparks; 05 October 2023, 01:43 PM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    And training AI on databases is what they are doing.
    Database tools being present. Don't equal AI.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    36% of Steam linux users are on a Nvidia card, (excluding the steam deck which now accounts for over 40% of all Steam linux users).
    So if you want to run with that, why is fedora already so unattractive to gamers?
    Fedora not be of interest to gamers is not a new thing steam numbers have shown that for quite some time. Fedora package numbers also shows that.

    Debian/Ubuntu is around 15% Fedora around 30%. What percentage would be Arch. Arch is the other outlier where you see 80-90 percent with kernel development packages installed. Now that would be a place where Nvidia would have some weight.

    If I was betting based on package information would be 1/3-1/2 those with Nvidia cards running games by steam would be on Arch.

    As I said by Fedora package usage Fedora users appear quite boring lots of web development and general work stuff. Nothing fancy like HPC or AI development as your common fedora user. Of course there will be outliers.

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  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    work with databases the like are very present.
    And training AI on databases is what they are doing.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Fedora usage in VM turns out to be very low.
    Sure, mine get used maybe once every 6 months, Fedora even less now we have migrated them to Oracle Linux. but you were counting installs not usage.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Do note that 30% is not just Nvidia that is parties using like ZFS file system and the like.
    36% of Steam linux users are on a Nvidia card, (excluding the steam deck which now accounts for over 40% of all Steam linux users).
    So if you want to run with that, why is fedora already so unattractive to gamers?
    Last edited by mSparks; 04 October 2023, 08:21 PM.

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