Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

[oiaohm]

Not really, because a very large proportion of fedora installs will be inside VMs that are using the host GPU drivers, I have like 7 different Fedora VM disks, they all use Oracles openGL driver guest addons for desktop GPU acceleration on nvidia cards.

In that case none of those images are doing AI or HPC right because. Also you can spot the Virtualbox VM guest additions. This is another thing you might see users do a lot but is absolutely sure less than 1 percent of the user base.

You need to stop assuming what Fedora users in general will be doing mSparks your guesses are way off. If you look at fedora systems the tools to make progressive web applications and work with databases the like are very present.

Fedora usage in VM turns out to be very low. Bare metal installs are dominate. Maybe this has something todo with Centos and other so called free enterprise options being dominantly installed in VM.

Also, as some 85% of PCs only have an Intel GPU in them, 30% running nvidia on fedora is considerably more than windows.

Do note that 30% is not just Nvidia that is parties using like ZFS file system and the like. Yes over 15% of fedora users have OpenZFS stuff installed. Remember I said that 30% is upper-limit as in number of Nvidia GPU will not be 30%. So there every possibility there is no more Nvidia usage on Fedora than Windows. Debian and Ubuntu related OS there is likely less Nvidia usage than Windows.

Yes Microsoft asks Nvidia for drivers than don't hardlock Nvidia first says no to Microsoft then due to them not having enough market share Microsoft says simple if you don't we will not sign your drivers then Nvidia gives and implements the driver restarting bit. Yes that how that goes down for Microsoft to get that feature. I am sorry the only way you get quality drivers out of Nvidia is play hard ball.

Something to be aware of as well lets say we go back in the numbers to 2013 when DRI3/DMABUF appears back then 80-90% of Linux users generally had kernel-devel equals installed in their distributions. Debian/Ubuntu.... area has declined way more than Fedora but Fedora has declined a lot in the usage of third party drivers.

Back in 2016 when Nvidia did the eglstreams wayland even then there was still possible enough possible market share to push things. It is something else to be aware of we are still seeing year on year decline in the install of kernel-devel packages.

Redhat saying their customers wanting open source and mainlined drivers is no joke. This is a trend across all Linux Distributions. Mainlining graphics driver its going to have to support KMS,GBM,DMABUF like it or not. This is exactly like how Microsoft sets rules on what features graphics driver have to have and if Nvidia does not obey Microsoft just refuses to sign their drivers and black list their drivers until they do.

Nvidia on Linux has got away without being a team player and that is serous-ally coming to the end. Yes Nvidia users are going to get caught in you will be a team player or else push and like it or not Distributions are not going to care.

Something you have not considered that is down right scary half of the x.org X11 server code for bare metal only has a single user being Nvidia. Yes Nvidia migrate to the newer not deprecated interfaces would equal being able to delete half the x.org X11 server baremetal code base. Distributions have quite a bit of a maintenance problem coming from Nvidia drivers that they can get rid of if they can pull Nvidia into line.

[mSparks]

work with databases the like are very present.

And training AI on databases is what they are doing.

Fedora usage in VM turns out to be very low.

Sure, mine get used maybe once every 6 months, Fedora even less now we have migrated them to Oracle Linux. but you were counting installs not usage.

Do note that 30% is not just Nvidia that is parties using like ZFS file system and the like.

36% of Steam linux users are on a Nvidia card, (excluding the steam deck which now accounts for over 40% of all Steam linux users).
So if you want to run with that, why is fedora already so unattractive to gamers?

[oiaohm]

And training AI on databases is what they are doing.

Database tools being present. Don't equal AI.

36% of Steam linux users are on a Nvidia card, (excluding the steam deck which now accounts for over 40% of all Steam linux users).
So if you want to run with that, why is fedora already so unattractive to gamers?

Fedora not be of interest to gamers is not a new thing steam numbers have shown that for quite some time. Fedora package numbers also shows that.

Debian/Ubuntu is around 15% Fedora around 30%. What percentage would be Arch. Arch is the other outlier where you see 80-90 percent with kernel development packages installed. Now that would be a place where Nvidia would have some weight.

If I was betting based on package information would be 1/3-1/2 those with Nvidia cards running games by steam would be on Arch.

As I said by Fedora package usage Fedora users appear quite boring lots of web development and general work stuff. Nothing fancy like HPC or AI development as your common fedora user. Of course there will be outliers.

[mSparks]

Database tools being present. Don't equal AI.



Fedora not be of interest to gamers is not a new thing steam numbers have shown that for quite some time. Fedora package numbers also shows that.

Debian/Ubuntu is around 15% Fedora around 30%. What percentage would be Arch. Arch is the other outlier where you see 80-90 percent with kernel development packages installed. Now that would be a place where Nvidia would have some weight.

If I was betting based on package information would be 1/3-1/2 those with Nvidia cards running games by steam would be on Arch.

As I said by Fedora package usage Fedora users appear quite boring lots of web development and general work stuff. Nothing fancy like HPC or AI development as your common fedora user. Of course there will be outliers.

well, Fedora use is going to be zero across the board once they drop support for the only usable, reliable display server.

which is a shame, but unavoidable now I guess.

[oiaohm]

well, Fedora use is going to be zero across the board once they drop support for the only usable, reliable display server.

which is a shame, but unavoidable now I guess.

So Oracle and Suse going to drop X11 display server bare metal as well. They don't have enough Nvidia users to justify X11 server either.

Nvidia does see the writing on the wall as well but with the number of faults their drivers have I think it unlikely they well meet the dead line.

[mSparks]

So Oracle and Suse going to drop X11 display server bare metal as well. .

Very wishful, incorrect thinking. They are not dropping anything. They are now adding to everything.

The truth is:

OpenELA will host source code and become the shared repository for Enterprise Linux. This includes not only the base OS, but also possible feature additions, customization, and extra packages that the community requires. Each individual downstream project has the ability to build from any of these options, either bug-for-bug and 1:1 with the Enterprise Linux standard, or providing customizations and changes.

This is the freedom that open source enables.

[oiaohm]

Very wishful, incorrect thinking. They are not dropping anything. They are now adding to everything.

No that wishful thinking on your part. Key word is "requires" not wants. Xwayland allowed to to run X11 application with Nvidia hardware did it not. So you required X11 support xwayland does that. Someone meeting what you require does not mean it will be good.

The truth is what I said like it or not Oracle and Suse and Rocky in fact all want to be rid of bare metal X11 server.

OpenELA writes a lot of good sounding things until you notice weasel words and check out what the policies of the parties behind the project are.

[mSparks]

Someone meeting what you require does not mean it will be good.

X11 is already good, very widely adopted by everyone who uses and develops for linux, and the only people complaining about it believe people will use a desktop environment that can't even track mouse movement accurately or move a window without completely crashing the machine - as long as you try and force them to.

check out what the policies of the parties behind the project are.

Perhaps you should do that rather than rely on whatever lies people told you about them.
openELA will be replacing RHEL.
Wayland will never replace X11. Its simply to poorly designed and resolving known issues far too slowly to ever be a serious contender to X11. The forthcoming mass exodus from FC40 will almost certainly be the last nail in its coffin.

[oiaohm]

openELA will be replacing RHEL.

Have we seen this before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Linux

Its not a new idea mSparks. RHEL crushes these idea long term mostly due to the parties not having upstream development. Remember upstream development gives you access to the project security mailing list so allowing you to apply security patches ahead of everyone else.

Wayland will never replace X11. Its simply to poorly designed and resolving known issues far too slowly to ever be a serious contender to X11. The forthcoming mass exodus from FC40 will almost certainly be the last nail in its coffin.

You know the person you quoted for Wayland having worse performance than X11 with nvidia. Guess what he just setup his laptops with KDE wayland with nvidia hardware.

The problem here remember by FC40 you have zink in mesa3d that able to run xwayland with glamor. I don't think Nvidia provided drivers will be fixed by release of F40 but I don't think the defects will be a major problem either because the worse areas will be handled by Valve.

So either Nvidia or Valve is going to fix most of the Nvidia user performance problems.

This is where is gets horrible. Valve is funding zink and dxvk not for the Linux usage but because they need those under Windows so they can sell games to windows users that will not work with the vendor provided drivers for opengl and direct x. Yes vendor being AMD Intel and Nvidia. Valve has the market share to bother about dealing with the defective Nvidia driver problem.

Valve is being fairly clear they want all opengl drivers to be mesa3d.

Nvidia need to get the memo on Linux. What Nvidia does on Linux on windows would really be like lets go and provide a complete replacement to the DX graphics stack and ignore what Microsoft is doing. Nvidia did look at doing that at one point with Windows Vista and Microsoft made it clear do that no signed drivers for you ever again.

[mSparks]

Have we seen this before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Linux

Its not a new idea mSparks.

Did other former popular RHEL clones like Oracle Linux, SUSE and
Rocky Linux
adopt scientific linux?

https://rockylinux.org/news/statement-openela-2023-08-31/

RHEL crushes these idea long term mostly due to the parties not having upstream development.

CentOS was a better alternative. Now RedHat no longer controls what the definition of "EL" is they wont be crushing anything anymore.
They made themselves largely irrelevant to the server and desktop markets.
e.g.

https://github.com/maxbyte9p/elfs/tree/main

The only people using Redhat now are people in Redhat, and we already established they dont actually use it.