Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

[mdedetrich]

One of the reasons NetFlix using FreeBSD on the caches is why Sony uses FreeBSD on the playsation 5. We don't want clients asking for source code and that we might have to hand over something business critical.

No its not, Netflix publicly said the reason they used FreeBSD is that at the time Linux's networking stack was shit which was definitely true. There are no relevant clients here for Netflix because these video content caching machines just sit in ISP's, there isn't going to be any clients asking for the source in this case.

[oiaohm]

lol,
RT is the industries second largest growth area after AI

I know what RT is. I have worked in that field with CNC. Custom CNC controllers adding CNC to 200+ year old mils.

Would help if you had.

The historic use for X11. multiple realtime applications running on discrete dislocated cpus that all talk to a single central display server, aka how to run a bread factory, each machine in the factory runs its own X11 client, managed from a central location on a master display server, probably a backup or two.

The RT space does not setup like this.

Do you have any clue what SCADA or HMI system are. SCADA documentation up to about 2010 mentions X11 as something you have to let though. There was major death case in 2011 caused by X11 failure.

• C++ Qt 5 framework with QtCANbus, QtSerialPort, and QtSerialBus with Modbus RTU and TCP/IP support.
• CANopen stack
• RTnet real-time network stack and drivers for Cobalt LinRT BSP
• Ethernet Powerlink drivers and stack
• EtherCAT drivers and stack
• BACnet stack
• IEEE1588 PPT drivers and stack

This is also on the LinRT website. If you were building that bread factory using modern protocols you are using Ethernet Powerlink or EtherCat.(I have been inside a bread factory replacing hardware 4 years ago)

Factory control is not done by X11 or any graphical protocol any more. Think like your router you log in to configure your router but once it up and running you don't touch the GUI on it again because logs and status is going out of one of the standards for doing this. All these modern standards for factory/car control is that you disconnect the network the software on the device does not crash and that they support multi output being connected at the same time to the same bit of software.

mSparks be real does a network connected printer require X11 client to function the answer is no right. You find HTML on them to network configure them right. The modern Realtime deployments are this way like it or not.

The RT users have very little interest in X11 in fact they would prefer it gone. Heck they have almost zero interest in Wayland as well as neither in fact fits their use case.

Think about it for one min you have some realtime bit of hardware monitoring something do you really want in production usage to be wasting what could be life saving CPU time rendering a graphic for a user to look at or do you just want to send raw data to a client application to render that can be network multi cast to multi outputs.

Reality the the bread factory example done modern day does not work X11 clients are too resource hungry we have a lot better modern protocols. Small http webserver with a web application takes less resources than running X11 client. Libx11 is not cheap with X11 horrible network protocol yet small http webserver with web application is also classes as too heavy for the realtime case to be left running all the time. Yes http webserver for configuration will be start on demand.

The realtime developers are not going to keep X11 or Wayland alive like it or not. Because like it or not they have almost no interest in Wayland or X11. The interest is only to deal with legacy systems that they are slowly migrating out of.

Interest in Wayland was higher in embedded space before 2020 while Nvidia was still trying to sell people on eglstreams so there was a possibly of two competing out solutions being gbm/dmabuf and eglstreams so Wayland protocol and compositor as abstraction layer had some use to them. But now that everything is going gbm/dmabuf might as well go direct to hardware and not waste the CPU cycles for single application devices that most real-time hardware is with a screen.

The reality for parties like LinRT is that Wayland and X11 are legacy systems they are in the process of stopping using because they have become pointless and just sources of problems.

X11 networking feature stopped being useful for Real-time items in factories in 2011 in fact came a legal liability. When a malfunction has caused over 1000 deaths in a single event and you are working in the real-time hardware control field you better know about it. Yes those deaths is what brought he interest in the Real-time space in 2011 into finding something else this include interest in Wayland and direct output. Direct output has won. Yes the new specialist control network protocol also appear out the same disaster designed from the ground up not to have the defects.

[mSparks]

I know what RT is. I have worked in that field with CNC. Custom CNC controllers adding CNC to 200+ year old mils.

Would help if you had.



The RT space does not setup like this.

Do you have any clue what SCADA or HMI system are. SCADA documentation up to about 2010 mentions X11 as something you have to let though. There was major death case in 2011 caused by X11 failure.


This is also on the LinRT website. If you were building that bread factory using modern protocols you are using Ethernet Powerlink or EtherCat.(I have been inside a bread factory replacing hardware 4 years ago)

Factory control is not done by X11 or any graphical protocol any more. Think like your router you log in to configure your router but once it up and running you don't touch the GUI on it again because logs and status is going out of one of the standards for doing this. All these modern standards for factory/car control is that you disconnect the network the software on the device does not crash and that they support multi output being connected at the same time to the same bit of software.

mSparks be real does a network connected printer require X11 client to function the answer is no right. You find HTML on them to network configure them right. The modern Realtime deployments are this way like it or not.

The RT users have very little interest in X11 in fact they would prefer it gone. Heck they have almost zero interest in Wayland as well as neither in fact fits their use case.

Think about it for one min you have some realtime bit of hardware monitoring something do you really want in production usage to be wasting what could be life saving CPU time rendering a graphic for a user to look at or do you just want to send raw data to a client application to render that can be network multi cast to multi outputs.

Reality the the bread factory example done modern day does not work X11 clients are too resource hungry we have a lot better modern protocols. Small http webserver with a web application takes less resources than running X11 client. Libx11 is not cheap with X11 horrible network protocol yet small http webserver with web application is also classes as too heavy for the realtime case to be left running all the time. Yes http webserver for configuration will be start on demand.

The realtime developers are not going to keep X11 or Wayland alive like it or not. Because like it or not they have almost no interest in Wayland or X11. The interest is only to deal with legacy systems that they are slowly migrating out of.

Interest in Wayland was higher in embedded space before 2020 while Nvidia was still trying to sell people on eglstreams so there was a possibly of two competing out solutions being gbm/dmabuf and eglstreams so Wayland protocol and compositor as abstraction layer had some use to them. But now that everything is going gbm/dmabuf might as well go direct to hardware and not waste the CPU cycles for single application devices that most real-time hardware is with a screen.

The reality for parties like LinRT is that Wayland and X11 are legacy systems they are in the process of stopping using because they have become pointless and just sources of problems.

X11 networking feature stopped being useful for Real-time items in factories in 2011 in fact came a legal liability. When a malfunction has caused over 1000 deaths in a single event and you are working in the real-time hardware control field you better know about it. Yes those deaths is what brought he interest in the Real-time space in 2011 into finding something else this include interest in Wayland and direct output. Direct output has won. Yes the new specialist control network protocol also appear out the same disaster designed from the ground up not to have the defects.

Seems like a lot of squirming when you could just admit you were likely wrong and all signs point to Fedora 40 being a bigger flop than RH9.

[oiaohm]

Seems like a lot of squirming when you could just admit you were likely wrong and all signs point to Fedora 40 being a bigger flop than RH9.

Problem here you need to admit the world has changed. RH9 and Fedora are not realtime targeted. Really nothing I wrote was if Fedora 40 would be a flop or not.

The fact Wayland had 7% usage in 2022 of all Linux users by firefox numbers itself makes the idea that a Fedora going all in on Wayland is not that risky its a bleeding edge distribution taking these gambles is normal.

There is one thing but. If distributions like Fedora start taking the serous steps to Wayland. Nvidia drivers being broken are going to come more of a problem for Nvidia.

Think about it who is has been doing the core work to keep Mesa and other things working with X11 bare metal.

[mSparks]

The fact Wayland had 7% usage in 2022 of all Linux users by firefox numbers itself makes the idea that a Fedora going all in on Wayland is not that risky its a bleeding edge distribution taking these gambles is normal.

News at 10: wayland fan thinks alienating over 93% of users is a good plan shocker.

[oiaohm]

News at 10: wayland fan thinks alienating over 93% of users is a good plan shocker.

Fedora done many changes worse than that. The first round of pulseaudio comes to mind where with Fedora was a 99% audio failure rate for 6 months. Fedora is known for pushing the envelop at times. Yes that pulseaudio fun was Fedora 8.

You are saying Wayland fan that not the case. We are talking about Fedora here. Upsetting 93% of users is nothing for a new release of Fedora. There is a reason why if you are a fedora user wait for the first point release of a new major release before updating your systems.

Please note those numbers in 2022 is before lots of distributions started Wayland default and the numbers of Wayland desktop users has been growing.

There is something else to consider a stack of items like VRR support, tearing and so on that don't have resources allocated in gnome to be completed for Wayland will get resources. This is something normal you see with Redhat this happened with systemd, pulseaudio and the list goes on when Fedora set this as the solution.

There is normal fedora behaviors like it or not. Yes again as Fedora 40 comes up due to looking at dropping X11 session support expect to see more resources put into gnome fixing issues with Wayland. Normal fedora actions. Of course another normal fedora action is change mind at last min as well.

[mSparks]

Fedora done many changes worse than that. The first round of pulseaudio comes to mind where with Fedora was a 99% audio failure rate for 6 months. Fedora is known for pushing the envelop at times. Yes that pulseaudio fun was Fedora 8.

You are saying Wayland fan that not the case. We are talking about Fedora here. Upsetting 93% of users is nothing for a new release of Fedora. There is a reason why if you are a fedora user wait for the first point release of a new major release before updating your systems.

Please note those numbers in 2022 is before lots of distributions started Wayland default and the numbers of Wayland desktop users has been growing.

There is something else to consider a stack of items like VRR support, tearing and so on that don't have resources allocated in gnome to be completed for Wayland will get resources. This is something normal you see with Redhat this happened with systemd, pulseaudio and the list goes on when Fedora set this as the solution.

There is normal fedora behaviors like it or not. Yes again as Fedora 40 comes up due to looking at dropping X11 session support expect to see more resources put into gnome fixing issues with Wayland. Normal fedora actions. Of course another normal fedora action is change mind at last min as well.

the only important part of audio that didnt work with pulse audio when they switched it to default was 5.1 channel sound. Everything else was better. And we still have alsa (since its needed to setup 5.1 sound)

Hardly comparable.

Dropping X11 with wayland the state its in now is more akin to microsoft releasing windows 12 with no ms office support.

heck, probably worse, because I wouldnt be surprised if more than 7% of windows users dont have ms office these days.

Remember wayland has been default in pretty much every distro for years, so that link means 93% of firefox users actively uninstalled it. (and a year later the rest probably have now as well), assuming most of them are ubuntu or FC users now, that is 93% of current FC users who wont dnf upgrade to FC40.

Hillarious tbh, but at least it will put this nonesnese to bed for the forseeable future, FC41 will bring it back for sure, maybe even during the FC40 run, but by then it will very likely be too late.

But, not even a little risky, 100% agree with you.

[oiaohm]

the only important part of audio that didnt work with pulse audio when they switched it to default was 5.1 channel sound. Everything else was better. And we still have asla (since its needed to setup 5.1 sound)

Rose color glasses. 99% of users end up with no functional audio output by default until the first updates with Fedora 8 when Pulseaudio was placed as defualt.

Dropping X11 with wayland the state its in now is more akin to microsoft releasing windows 12 with no ms office support.

Microsoft done this before. Windows Vista remember it released without Nvidia or ATI graphics driver support being done or what about nightmare Windows ME. Also yes MS Office of Vista time was not certified to run on Windows Vista.

Sorry using Microsoft as why not do this is not good move. Because what Fedora is talking about doing is exactly to the Microsoft playbook like it or not.

You cannot make a omelet without breaking a few eggs. You cannot get Nvidia to work on their driver without putting them between rock and hard place.

Yes Apple is even worse.

Every time there is going to major platform change there is going to be pain. Mac os 9 to X was particularly bad. XP to vista horrible. ME because windows 2000 was not working how Microsoft wanted so they made something in 6 months halfway between 9x and NT that was broken all over the place.

Standard operation here at some point the change from X11 to Wayland was going to get painful this is normal.

Remember wayland has been default in pretty much every distro for years, so that link means 93% of firefox users actively uninstalled it.

No you have to take those firefox numbers with a serous grain of salt. If you install firefox by distribution provided package by default it never provides any stats back to mozilla.

[mSparks]

.
Sorry using Microsoft as why not do this is not good move. Because what Fedora is talking about doing is exactly to the Microsoft playbook like it or not.

I have said as much. Its pretty clear most redhat drones are from a windows background these days and not a posix one.

but redhat and fedora/rhel is not microsoft and windows. Redhat dont have a monopoly on the linux source code, distro hopping is a usb stick away.

Windows Vista remember it released without Nvidia or ATI graphics driver support

Not one single windows vista PC shipped without accelerated graphics support, quite the opposite, vista in its early days with the aero desktop was limited to machines with good gpu acceleration, and aero was almost completely dropped by windows 7, and left windows phone an unhappy memory.

Talking of which, windows phone and wayland do share a lot of commonalities. Maybe I am wrong and wayland will be as big a blockbuster as windoze phone.

No you have to take those firefox numbers with a serous grain of salt

Lol, now take them with a grain of salt as it clicks that 7% of users staying on default is 93% of users who actively didnt.

I tell you what, its more than 93% now. that 7% is from 2022. Do you really think any of them are still using wayland after 12 months of regression after regression?

Yes Apple is even worse.

MacOS is a posix OS, fairly good alternative to both windows and fedora core (and has native ms office support that is better than windows). recommended even. definately not worse. their M2 chips are phenomenal.

[oiaohm]

Not one single windows vista PC shipped without accelerated graphics support, quite the opposite, vista in its early days with the aero desktop was limited to machines with good gpu acceleration, and aero was almost completely dropped by windows 7, and left windows phone an unhappy memory.

https://www.firewall.cx/tools-tips-reviews/news-and-annoucements/news-announcements-archive/windows-vista-crashes-blamed-on-nvidia.html

Yet Nvidia end up in court case because of not providing working drivers.

Windows Vista Capable lawsuit has a lot of documents released by Microsoft that show that ATI and Nvidia were not getting along with Microsoft with Vista development. In fact Nvidia was being a jackass who when Microsoft would not do what they wanted put out broken drivers on Windows vista so being responsible for the lion share of Windows Vista crashes. Yes even that Nvidia did not make up that percentage of the Windows Vista install base. The law suit exposed all Microsoft metrics on Vista.

Vista was released with a known 80% performance hit when using Nvidia hardware this is a matter of public record mSparks. Yes people with Windows Vista and Nvidia drivers had crashes and under-performing system with windows Vista. Worst part in the Windows Vista Capable law suite was proven that Microsoft knew they were fighting with Nvidia and did not tell consumers what was going on.

Vista release was by Microsoft own documentation without Nvidia or ATI blessing. The only GPU vendor they had blessing with was Intel. I am not incorrect with my statement.

I tell you what, its more than 93% now. that 7% is from 2022. Do you really think any of them are still using wayland after 12 months of regression after regression?

No you can get newer numbers from Mozilla and it about 14 percent wayland now. Lets see how many times you can guess the wrong way. Since you are taking those numbers without grain of salt should I just argue with current growth rates that it makes no sense not to do the migration now and present those numbers.

When I say numbers should be taken with a grain of salt and you don't agree you just told me I should take those numbers as fact because you are going to mSparks and then I will proceed to beat you over the head with them.