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AlmaLinux No Longer Aims For 1:1 Compatibility With RHEL

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  • #61
    Originally posted by partcyborg View Post

    Why do you even use linux and post here if you hate the gpl and everything about the community?

    I'm sure there are plenty of people in the fox news comment section whom you would get along with
    I think i have addressed this in the past but there are several reasons:

    1) It's legally free. I have several computers and i am routinely on the lookout for a good deal on a used system, and I do not like spending money on multiple OS licenses.

    2) I am hedging my bets just in case Windows ever evolves to the point where I feel i can no longer use it. This almost happened back in the original XP days, then it nearly happened with Win 8, i feel the same about Win 11 and who knows what Win 12 and later iterations bring. For now, Win 10 is perfect.

    3) I can separate Linux use from the GPL. There's no question I despise the GPL, but there are a number of Linux based distros that i think are on the right track but I do think the GPL has hurt the Linux ecosystem way more than it ever helped.

    4) Live -USB distros that make testing older systems very easy without having to install an OS.

    5) A wide variety of encryption options that I use on a daily basis, such as LUKS and gocryptfs.

    6) My hobbies include web development and Python, and i prefer to do this on Linux with Pluma.

    7) I like the Mate desktop.

    But if anyone ever released a BSD based OS that was full featured and had no GPL'd code at all, I would switch in a heart beat.

    Or maybe the GPL lovers will grow up some day.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by espi View Post
      So I'm here, I hate the technical direction that Canonical is going. I hate the commercial direction that RHEL is going. I guess I'm going to move to SUSE... If they fuck it up I might just push to move everything to fucking Windows server, at least Microsoft is consistant and won't rugpull support without warning.
      Yeah, I like Suse I just disliked yast and how invasive it was in SLES, but my experience is now a decade+ old so maybe its time to take another look.

      Originally posted by espi View Post
      And for people who say that Oracle/Alma/Rocky are just leechers, turns out Red Hat is also "leeching" from the entire Linux ecosystem. If they want to have an OS that can't be cloned I guess they should just make a closed source one and stop fucking around.
      I believe thats what they are doing - and still contributing back all of their open source projects, which are amazing, and all the changes going into RHEL are *still free*. They've always had closed source, look at the differences in Keycloak vs the same in IDM. That was long before the purchase by IBM. Oracle IS a leecher, they make a ton of money off of others free work and don't put in nearly what they get out. They are able to do a little at all because they leech off of RHEL's enterprise base to sell Oracle DB and force people to convert over to OEL at some point.

      Originally posted by espi View Post
      And I know that Red Hat is one of the largest, if not the largest individual contributor to that ecosystem. But turns out their "leechers" also are, Oracle in particular is a huge contributor.
      The largest and they get returns from Good Will. This was unfortunately a decision made by a financial analyst and not someone who understand the intangible price of Good Will. I feel it was within their rights both morally and legally but it REALLY PISSED OFF people and thats expensive.

      Originally posted by espi View Post
      One way or another, I think this is a pretty short sighted move. Free clones are a great way to onboard new users, bringing more certification money, more mindshare and more sysadmins pushing to use the thing they already know how to use in their companies. For companies its a perfect development target, without having to mess with licensing their potentially short-lived dev machines. All in all I think long term this will erode RHEL as the standard "professional" Linux.
      You don't onboard many with free clones, you just hire better admins. It DOES encourage the ecosystem to develop their packages for your closed enterprise software because they can easily run CentOS and verify their packages work binary compatible. Mind share is also an intangible asset worth more than gold and thats been lost.

      That won't be possible anymore so RHEL support will wither to just the Big Players In Linux Software very quickly.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post

        thats not remotely true, alma contributors are massive to the greater rhel ecosystem, alma already covered this themselves, but a specifc alma contributor maintains 600 packages on the epel. do they contribute directly to rhel's code base? maybe maybe not, not too sure. but both alma and linux add value to the rhel ecosystem, oracle by being very important to linux as a whole including the kernel, and alma directly contributing to the greater rhel ecosystem, including expanding to new hardware which rhel explictly said they do not count as leeches.



        they most certainly contribute to the greater rhel ecosystem and I would consider that quite valuable.
        nice bait and switch. an epel contributor does something, and just because they are also working on alma doesn't give alma project credit for the work. whatever value inside alma is 100% created by redhat and upstream. all alma does is give it out there, and host a couple mailing lists.

        I am willing to admit that event this might not go down to IBM's benefit, but I think this idea that the community can build or maintain an enterprise distro is foolish.

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        • #64

          Originally posted by Barley9432 View Post
          So exactly what CentOS Stream is doing, but instead Stream actually contributes to upstream instead of being leeches feeding of RedHat and giving nothing in return.

          Hopefully these leech rebuilds like Alma, Rocky, Oracle all shutdown. They have been taking advantage of the good will of open source for far too long.
          Yeah, how dare that leech, Oracle do something so outrageous as ... *checks notes* be a top-ten contributor to the linux kernel.

          Originally posted by novideo View Post
          Oracle, Alma, and Rocky should team up and at least maintain compatibility between themselves, and API/ABI compatibility with RHEL. Then in 2025 Oracle should base the next version of Oracle Linux on Debian 13 instead of RHEL, and commercialize it by selling 8-10 year support contracts like RHEL does, but unlike Ubuntu, maintain full compatibility with Debian. The Debian volunteers will still give Oracle reduced maintenance burden, like RHEL did, and they can improve their PR by employing Debian engineers and contributing everything upstream, improve Debian upstream, release ZFS under a license compatible with mainline Linux, and join the OIN. They may never have a chance this big to change their image, so they better not miss it.
          I think Oracle rebasing its distro on Debian is a pipe dream. They've invested 15 years building market share with their enterprise customers as a RHEL-compatible distro, so if they rebase I would imagine it would be off of CentOS Stream. They also have the resources to go fully independent and upstream and give the community an RPM-based alternative to Debian that isn't dominated by RH/IBM. Oracle already has Debian and Ubuntu as available options in Oracle Cloud, so I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by rebasing OL on Debian. And as much as I would love to see them dual-license ZFS under GPLv2 personally, I think that ship has sailed. Hopefully I'm wrong, because it would be cool to see those changes.

          Originally posted by fitzie View Post
          Alma and oracle are correctly called leeches because if everyone used alma or oracle linux the host (IBM) would just shutdown rhel as a product that makes no profit for them.
          It's still profitable, but that is effectively what IBM is doing. Unless you are already a company that pays them for a RHEL support contract, you have very little incentive to go with RHEL now. Between Alma, Rocky, Oracle, and Suse, there are plenty of options that don't lock you behind IBM's EULA as a Sword of Damocles hanging over your GPL redistribution rights.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by slagiewka View Post


            I will need sources here. IBM's 2022 report states they made ~$17B in revenue from "Software" of which Red Hat is only a part (I can't seem to see the proportion anywhere).
            Yeah, that number seems more like IBMs total revenue. Numbers from 2020 from RedHat themselves:
            Red Hat, Inc. (NYSE: RHT), the world's leading provider of open source solutions, today announced financial results for the first quarter of fiscal year 2020 ended May 31, 2019.


            So, $900 some million for the 1st quarter. So, ~$4b for the year. I doubt they grew THAT much since IBM bought them.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by novideo View Post
              Oracle, Alma, and Rocky should team up and at least maintain compatibility between themselves, and API/ABI compatibility with RHEL. Then in 2025 Oracle should base the next version of Oracle Linux on Debian 13 instead of RHEL, and commercialize it by selling 8-10 year support contracts like RHEL does, but unlike Ubuntu, maintain full compatibility with Debian. The Debian volunteers will still give Oracle reduced maintenance burden, like RHEL did, and they can improve their PR by employing Debian engineers and contributing everything upstream, improve Debian upstream, release ZFS under a license compatible with mainline Linux, and join the OIN. They may never have another chance this big to improve their image, so they better not miss it.
              Here's Debian's chance to get into the enterprise space and I'm sure the Debian devs are up to the task. Debian has a long history and it's renowned as a solid stable distro perfect for servers and this should be a big plus if Debian does decide to make a play for the enterprise space.

              Comment


              • #67
                Would be better if RedHat and SUSE would team up to create and finance a common upstream like Debian and both base their distros on that.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Zhivago View Post
                  They've invested 15 years building market share with their enterprise customers as a RHEL-compatible distro, so if they rebase I would imagine it would be off of CentOS Stream. They also have the resources to go fully independent and upstream and give the community an RPM-based alternative to Debian that isn't dominated by RH/IBM.
                  If they have the resources, they can do that, but until now they've just been rebuilding and repackaging RHEL. Do they really have the resources to do everything that RHEL did? Debian is already an established and viable LTS distro with over 1K volunteers. Oracle can add value by selling 8-10 year support contracts instead of Debian's 4, and bundling MySQL, VirtualBox, Java/GraalVM, etc. Maybe they already bundle their products for all the distros on Oracle Cloud, idk. It would reduce maintenance burden to use Debian, and improve PR, as the community will love them for it. If they want to keep RPM, they can build Debian source packages in to RPMs, though I don't understand the problem with dpkg. CentOS Stream is indeed another option however.

                  Oracle already has Debian and Ubuntu as available options in Oracle Cloud, so I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by rebasing OL on Debian.
                  Compared to Debian, it would be a payed enterprise-focused distro with more and longer support, and their "unbreakable" kernel or whatever it's called. Debian itself can be used for free as how CentOS used to be for RHEL, quick testing and development without needing to buy a license.

                  And as much as I would love to see them dual-license ZFS under GPLv2 personally, I think that ship has sailed.
                  I think so as well, but if there is any chance, now is the perfect time to do it, as all attention is on them and it will improve PR a lot.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DeepDayze View Post

                    Here's Debian's chance to get into the enterprise space and I'm sure the Debian devs are up to the task. Debian has a long history and it's renowned as a solid stable distro perfect for servers and this should be a big plus if Debian does decide to make a play for the enterprise space.
                    It's a huge chance for Oracle and Debian, if Oracle realizes it. Oracle can hire several dozen Debian developers and combine them with the Oracle Linux team, and act as a second corporate backer of Debian in addition to Canonical, but ideally without the projects that don't really benefit Debian, like snap.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by novideo View Post
                      If they have the resources, they can do that, but until now they've just been rebuilding and repackaging RHEL. Do they really have the resources to do everything that RHEL did?
                      100,000+ employees and $50 billion in annual revenue... yeah, I think they have the resources to match RHEL. What RedHat does with RHEL is not difficult. Most of RedHat's resources go either toward direct customer support or toward other products across the layers of their OpenStack offerings. If Debian can maintain an upstream distro with a handful of volunteers, Oracle can do the same with its own distro with its army of paid developers.

                      90% of the real work is done upstream, where Oracle already contributes. Oracle clearly already has a kernel dev team, a vulnerability/security team, and a testing team, and they manage their own yum repo for Oracle Linux. It wouldn't take much for them to just fork and go independent from here.

                      Originally posted by novideo View Post
                      Debian is already an established and viable LTS distro with over 1K volunteers.
                      Still a mystery why would Oracle move to Debian when all of its experience, expertise, and product are based on their RHEL-compatible distro. They certainly don't need Debian -- they could base off of CentOS Stream or Suse's fork or just roll their own. I just don't see what a company like Oracle has to gain by adopting Debian and becoming a direct competitor to Ubuntu.

                      Originally posted by novideo View Post
                      Oracle can add value by selling 8-10 year support contracts instead of Debian's 4, and bundling MySQL, VirtualBox, Java/GraalVM, etc.
                      Enterprise IT doesn't care about bundles. MySQL, VirtualBox, Java (both OracleJDK and OpenJDK), all are available in Oracle Linux's yum repo for an admin to grab as-needed and it's all certified to run on Oracle Linux. In fact, rebasing to Debian means they would have to migrate that entire repo to apt and that means fixing all the resulting broken packages and getting it all recertified on a Debian-based distro. It's still unclear to me why this would be something that Oracle's mega-enterprise customers would want. Pretty sure the governments, telcos, airlines, etc. that run on Oracle don't care about Debian.

                      Besides, as more enterprise workloads move to cloud, the distro isn't going to matter because Oracle will need to support whatever distros it makes available on Oracle Cloud (Oracle, RHEL, SLES, Debian, and Ubuntu as of now). Enterprise cloud is just a different beast.

                      Originally posted by novideo View Post
                      CentOS Stream is indeed another option however.
                      I think CentOS Stream isn't just another option, it's by far the most likely option if Oracle doesn't fork and go independent.

                      Originally posted by novideo View Post

                      It's a huge chance for Oracle and Debian, if Oracle realizes it. Oracle can hire several dozen Debian developers and combine them with the Oracle Linux team, and act as a second corporate backer of Debian in addition to Canonical, but ideally without the projects that don't really benefit Debian, like snap.
                      It seems far more likely (and logical) that they scoop up a few dozen RHEL developers and aim to take the fight to IBM. The Oracle-IBM beef goes way back to the early days of Oracle DB and IBM DB2 competing on IBM mainframes. All that big iron is rusting (while IBM keeps its lights on by selling support for it) but this is a blood feud that might not be on the radar of the younger generations.
                      Last edited by Zhivago; 14 July 2023, 05:10 PM.

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