Fedora Workstation 40 Considering To Implement Privacy-Preserving Telemetry

[skeevy420]

This is very true, but then let me tell you: computers weren't supposed to be easy.

Yes and no. The whole point of computers was to make impossibly hard tasks possible. While doing or programming those tasks weren't easy in the beginning, every generation has made them easier and easier to use and that has made them more and more accessible to the average person. As they become more and more accessible the programmers have to figure out how to make them both easy to use for a dumb-dumb while simultaneously being powerful tools.

For one thing, the word "telemetry" has negative connotations among us. Why didn't they use a friendlier, tamer word like "survey" (considering many of us accept the Steam one)?

FWIW, I consider "survey" in the Valve-sense to be a white-washed, politically correct word that tries to hide what it's really doing -- "telemetry". Just because I seem to accept it doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what it actually is. I only like it from Valve because it promotes the Linux agenda. Once the Linux agenda is far enough along they can eff right off.

[tuxd3v]

Please do not use Fedora. There are literally hundreds of other distros without this "malware".

It would be great if people stopped talking about privacy here (after all, all the data points and how and where they are collected will be made public) but talked about the use of telemetry for the worse or better.

If you really cared about privacy you would not 1) use the Internet (your web browser, specially if you're under Linux, is easily identifiable even if you always use Private Mode) 2) use your mobile phone (IMEI, location services, cellular operators saving your location, messages and calls) 3) be signed up on these forums (an infinite trail of your messages).

So basically, you are describing us as if we were North Korea..

[QwertyChouskie]

A new metrics collection setting will be added to the privacy page in gnome-initial-setup and also to the privacy page in gnome-control-center. This setting will be a toggle that will enable or disable metrics collection for the entire system. We want to ensure that metrics are never submitted to Fedora without the user's knowledge and consent, so the underlying setting will be off by default in order to ensure metrics upload is not unexpectedly turned on when upgrading from an older version of Fedora. However, we also want to ensure that the data we collect is meaningful, so gnome-initial-setup will default to displaying the toggle as enabled, even though the underlying setting will initially be disabled. (The underlying setting will not actually be enabled until the user finishes the privacy page, to ensure users have the opportunity to disable the setting before any data is uploaded.) This is to ensure the system is opt-out, not opt-in. This is essential because we know that opt-in metrics are not very useful. Few users would opt in, and these users would not be representative of Fedora users as a whole. We are not interested in opt-in metrics.

To make this a little more confusing, metrics collection is actually separate from uploading. Collection is always initially enabled, while uploading is always initially disabled. The graphical toggle enables or disables both at the same time. That is, a newly-installed Fedora system will always collect metrics locally at first, but the collected metrics will be deleted and never submitted to Fedora if the user disables the metrics collection toggle on the privacy page. If the user leaves the toggle enabled, then the collected metrics may be submitted only after finishing the privacy page.

Metrics uploading will be opt-in for users who upgrade from previous versions of Fedora Workstation, because we don't yet have a mechanism to ask the user to consent to data collection after a system upgrade like we do for new installations, but metrics collection will be opt-out. That is, your upgraded system will collect metrics locally but will never submit them to Fedora. If you visit the privacy page in gnome-control-center, then both collection and uploading will be either enabled or disabled depending on the user's selection. Unlike gnome-initial-setup, the switch in gnome-control-center will default to off if the user has not seen the switch in gnome-initial-setup and has not previously selected a value for the setting.

This might sound complicated, but it is consistent. If the user has not yet made a decision whether to allow telemetry, we collect it locally so that it's ready to submit if the user approves telemetry in the future, but we never upload it. Once the user makes a decision, then we either upload it or delete it and stop collecting.

TL;DR: Uploading telemetry is opt-in. Not sure where people got the idea it's opt-out.

[Luke]

When I was growing up (little kid 1965-75), the word "telemetry" was most commonly associated with rocketry and the space programs. Instrument readouts in the payload compartment of an unmanned rocket were useless, and if astronauts got into trouble having to read off every instrument to mission control would be a pain in the ass. Thus telemetry was putting the sensors on the rocket but the gauges and readouts on the ground. A manned spacecraft could have one set of readouts in the capsule, another on the ground, Now the term has other meanings it seems...

Oh and the computers of that era? Hand wound magnetic core RAM, about 1KB per each hand woven frame. When Apollo 13 got in trouble, that computer's 27A draw and the inabiity to compute the mid-course correction burn on the return leg without it were a real headache. I think they had to shut if off, with worries about it refusing to restart if it got too cold but not sure of that.

[Quackdoc]

I think s89 is making mistake like servo browser engine on desktop, all lot hype around it, just to be a deadware. Except a lot worse for scammy shill swarming the community, making bad decision for others.

I'm disappointed by their hardware quality and support. I'm skectical with their software for basically reinventing the rubber wheel. I guess they are better selling PC case with fancy sticker, not that I'm planning to buy their product.

Im actually pretty excited, i've been using cosmic-epoch off and on for about a month now, it's very barebones and I dont recommend it yet (doesn't even support touch screens yet) however im really excited for it, it has better performance then kwin does by a large amount. per monitor workspaces, per workspace tiling. and a couple nifty other features.

also in response to the servo bit, you can actually hold hope there, Igalia was hired to work on it, and a lot of progress has actually been made, mostly updating stuff, and managerial, (like for instance deciding to focus on a single layout engine instead of developing 2 side by side) but there have been some features added to the new layout engine (called layout 2020) and they are even working on a basic "minibrowser" (only a URL bar and a servo window, no tabs or anything) to help people test the engine

[pWe00Iri3e7Z9lHOX2Qx]

TL;DR: Uploading telemetry is opt-in. Not sure where people got the idea it's opt-out.

Might want to re-read what you quoted.

However, we also want to ensure that the data we collect is meaningful, so gnome-initial-setup will default to displaying the toggle as enabled, even though the underlying setting will initially be disabled. (The underlying setting will not actually be enabled until the user finishes the privacy page, to ensure users have the opportunity to disable the setting before any data is uploaded.) This is to ensure the system is opt-out, not opt-in. This is essential because we know that opt-in metrics are not very useful. Few users would opt in, and these users would not be representative of Fedora users as a whole. We are not interested in opt-in metrics.

To make this a little more confusing, metrics collection is actually separate from uploading. Collection is always initially enabled, while uploading is always initially disabled. The graphical toggle enables or disables both at the same time. That is, a newly-installed Fedora system will always collect metrics locally at first, but the collected metrics will be deleted and never submitted to Fedora if the user disables the metrics collection toggle on the privacy page. If the user leaves the toggle enabled, then the collected metrics may be submitted only after finishing the privacy page.

For new installs, the toggle will default to on when you hit the privacy page. If you don't do anything to opt out, uploading gets enabled once they continue past the privacy page. Existing users who upgrade won't automatically upload telemetry. Local metric collection will still be on for upgrades, and if you visit the privacy page in settings but don't turn off the telemetry toggle, uploading will be enabled too.

[Quackdoc]

TL;DR: Uploading telemetry is opt-in. Not sure where people got the idea it's opt-out.

it's not, read it again

never submitted to Fedora if the user disables the metrics collection toggle on the privacy page. If the user leaves the toggle enabled, then the collected metrics may be submitted only after finishing the privacy page.

it's pretty explicit IF the user disables the toggle by the time they finish the page.

it's only opt-in for upgrading users NOT for new installs

[QwertyChouskie]

it's not, read it again



it's pretty explicit IF the user disables the toggle by the time they finish the page.

it's only opt-in for upgrading users NOT for new installs

My bad.

[lovenemesis]

Most likely unpopular idea:

The data they collected and the method they used are relatively fair.
The infrastructure is more open than their early days similar collecting method "smoke(?)", a similar telemetry method collecting hardware info.
The UX they approached user is on par with how Steam Survey works.

As a long-term Fedora user, this is the least thing I need to worry about about privacy while being leaving a comment on Internet forum using Web browser.

BTW None of the average Linux distro can be the considered privacy-cautious. After all, that's why Tails Linux exist.

[muncrief]

Good lord.

This is one of the many reasons I run Arch on my desktop workstation and Manjaro on my home server. Not only are they routinely updated to the most current software, but they remain close to the spirit of Linux, and would never implement Microsoft/Apple like botnet behavior or components. And if they did I'd move to something like Gentoo and compile everything myself.

I mean really, sheesh. I wish all the distros creating Microsoft like GUIs and adopting their policies would just stop. It's beginning to make Linux look as bad as the evil it's supposed to fight.

However a convoluted Windows type GUI is one thing, and I understand some people actually like them, but adopting Microsoft botnet behavior is crossing the red line.