Debian Chooses A Reasonable, Common Sense Solution To Dealing With Non-Free Firmware

[user1]

Fixing bugs after product EOL ? Backporting of feature from newer generation ?
That said, you would not do it as a non developer, but chance that it happens and you can get it from free is higher than if it's closed source. Same is true for any software whether it runs in some specialized hardware or not.

I think I heard about these benefits, but is this such a common scenario when this stuff is urgently needed very often? I haven't heard about any specific case, like with specific old piece of hardware where this was beneficial. An example would be appreciated.

[wertigon]

But I don't see how would an open source firmware benefit me as an end user. From my point of view it benefits mostly developers and tinkerers like those who develop Noveau.

Hi, I work in industry. We design products that have to last for 30 to 50 years. Without a FOSS ecosystem we would need to hire a minor army of coders to maintain a sub-par OS, alternatively spend $$$$$$$$ to buy an OS from e.g. Wind River or Microsoft. And these companies give no guarantees of 30-50 years of support.

Instead of spending money on proprietary software, we can take all that manpower and cash and develop cool features for our core business. Sure, we still need to keep on top of the latest developments, but our Linux team only need to be 10 people instead of 100. We're not averse helping out where we can and submit and work on bugs where we see them.

We try to avoid as much proprietary crap as possible, since it only slows us down and the acquisition process can take over a year here as legal pours over every single syllable in a proposed EULA.

[nabero]

But I don't see how would an open source firmware benefit me as an end user. From my point of view it benefits mostly developers and tinkerers like those who develop Noveau.

Fixing bugs after product EOL ? Backporting of feature from newer generation ?
That said, you would not do it as a non developer, but chance that it happens and you can get it from free is higher than if it's closed source. Same is true for any software whether it runs in some specialized hardware or not.

[user1]

People aren't ideological about wanting free software for no reason. Firmware usually restricts what you can do with what you have been sold, to the benefit and goals of others - often, the people who sold it to you.

I would say that depends from person to person. For example, if we talk about GPU drivers and firmware on Linux, I, as an end user who is not a developer, prefer open source GPU drivers for obvious reasons (like not having to deal with issues caused by out of tree blobs and others). But I don't see how would an open source firmware benefit me as an end user. From my point of view it benefits mostly developers and tinkerers like those who develop Noveau.

But yeah, I get your point. RMS himself didn't become ideological about free software for no reason. It all started because of the stuff he couldn't do at MIT as a result of license restrictions.

[GreenReaper]

One issue causing the lack of free firmware is copy protection. When content wasn't a factor, there were fewer reasons to protect GPU firmware. But now there are Secrets, that contractually have to be kept Safe. Alas, doing so messes up a bunch of things that might be nice to do with open source software in the middle.

Frustratingly, I have also seen laws prohibiting open source software for radio devices of various kinds on the grounds that end users could modify it to accessed unlicensed spectrum or power levels. Of course, this also tends to make it impossible to adapt the hardware to newer standards, even if that would be possible.

People aren't ideological about wanting free software for no reason. Firmware usually restricts what you can do with what you have been sold, to the benefit and goals of others - often, the people who sold it to you.

[andyprough]

This is no surprise. Over the years, all Debian decision making has been co-opted by Ubuntu. The systemd decision was the clearest example - allowing Debian developers to work on supporting any other init system did not benefit Ubuntu at all, so they were all tossed to the side. Here, native support for non-free firmware aligns Debian more closely to Ubuntu's principles and workflow, so naturally it is adopted.

Basically, the child distro (Ubuntu) now runs the parent distro (Debian). The tail wags the dog. If you view their relationship this way, you'll never be surprised by the Debian decision making again.

The next big move will probably be dropping 32-bit support. Once again, it doesn't support Ubuntu's interests in any way, so it will be viewed as so much wasted developer time.

[evil_core]

Yeah. It's kind of silly to use such a formal name for things like "Quiet in the Library", "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service", and "We Reserve the Right To Refuse Service" signs.

I first saw it in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High", one of the favourite movies ever!

[Gps4life]

And openSUSE agrees...

Yes openSUSE is quit strict about their distro being opensource.

I remember though while on openSUSE install you can add packman repository, then all audio files and vids should just play.

[stormcrow]

Or, and this idea might be shocking enough to make people need to sit down: change the kernel license to something that makes it a violation to require firmware for operation of the hardware.

Make your shit *properly* in the first place instead of rushing everything to market for your biosphere-murdering headlong rush of planned-obsolence hardware, and you won't need firmware.

The rantings of a true ideologue. "My way or the highway." That's why FSF is irrelevant to most people. The real world most people have at least some passing connection doesn't work that way. It never has and never will. That's what RMS and other ideologues don't get and likely never will.

Firmware is always going to be necessary. Firmware is just software stored in a more permanent way used to initialize the hardware and bring it to a functional condition. You've probably never even come close to studying how the hardware functions you're using to post your drivel. Firmware will have bugs. Hardware will have bugs. Software will have bugs. It doesn't matter how long you test it, you can't test every single possible option in complex systems before release.

Resources and time are limited. Someone is going to find something a production team will have missed. This is why firmware is easily upgradable these days even if it's on a rewritable EPROM on the device. Planned obsolescence is an artificial problem separate from software maintenance though closely related in the form of withholding bug fixes for new purchases of hardware. It could be solved by a subscription program - pay us a living wage and we'll continue to offer the bug fixes. People have to eat, even FOSS developers. But I'm going to assume you want everything given to you as a freeloader from the tone of your rant.

Next, as soon as you start issuing ultimatums from a position of weakness (and trust me, in this case with all the alternatives out there: FreeBSD, NetBSD, forking the kernel, etc. you're in about as weak a position as it gets, not to mention it'd legally require all past non-trivial contributers to explicitly sign off in writing on such a change) you'll have everyone telling you to shove off in varying ways from polite sarcasm to telling you where to shove it. I'd be one of them on the shove it side. In fact, the Linux kernel would be about as popular as the FSF's version of it that removes the very things your talking about. There may be a handful of people in this world of 7+ billion people that use it. Screaming popularity there.

[redgreen925]

Thanks, Debian community, this is a great win for usability : )

Indeed no wasted time finding out what the problem is when your hardware does not work because you stupidly forgot the broken default installer and did not search around for the one with the non-free firmware on it. That "feature" bit me a month or so ago when doing a Debian install and did not have a hope in hell of getting a video signal for the desktop without the AMD firmware available to load. Let alone be informed that the requirement for it was needed for the options for install I selected.