Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ubuntu 22.04 LTS Changes Default For NVIDIA Driver Back To Using X.Org Rather Than Wayland

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Some interesting potential fallouts from this could happen:
    • Distributions wanting to drop X and move to Wayland risk alienating and even losing users with Nvidia cards. Some users dual-boot Linux & Windows and like their Nvidia cards, and we all know that opening the PC case to swap cards about is a BIG HASSLE that nobody will tolerate. Users might use Windows for some stuff and Linux for other stuff; I am in that group. Now those users have a tough choice of changing video cards to Intel or AMD or changing Linux operating systems (not always an easy task).
    • .
    • Nvidia could end up on the end of some horrible public PR, real or otherwise. Some might say that Nvidia doesn't care. Some say Nvidia makes big $$ on building cards that work pretty good under Windows so why bother with Linux. Many argue that it's all Nvidia's fault and bad PR is what they deserve for not opening up their drivers.
    • .
    • Windows supporters could scream with glee about Nvidia stuff not working on some Linux distros and therefore All Linux is CR@P because Nvidia cards "work fine" under Windows (even back to Windows 7 and before that).
    • .
    • The Linux "brand" as a whole does not need even the mere scent of hardware incompatibilities to soil it's image, much less hardware support issues between different distribution vendors; it would make Linux look like "a homebrew OS" to some decisionmakers. Linux has a hard enough time as it is supporting cutting edge hardware; typical Linux driver lag for good hardware support of new non-corporate hardware purchasers seems to be 6 to 12 months with various outliers coming later than that (when it comes at all) when vendors don't volunteer employee time to write Linux drivers or vendors bury features behind NDA documents. Need I mention accurate thermal sensors on older AMD and newer Zen platforms or even some motherboard sensors anyone?
    • .
    • Sure, the picture of Linus flipping the bird to Nvidia looks cool and all "rage against the machine" like, but that's just a picture of his opinion. Linux splitting in 2 different MAJOR directions (X versus Wayland) could set Linux progress back by years, especially on the non-corporate desktop. Linux has made great progress in business and embedded markets for a number of reasons, but it has always been challenged on the desktop by Windows & Apple.

    I think Nvidia could take the direction of "don't interrupt your enemy when he is making a big mistake in your favor". The X versus Wayland debate becomes a nice deep wedge between major segments of the Linux community & between Linux distributions...and Nvidia doesn't even have to step into the middle of it to make it happen. Nvidia can watch the Linux world simply eating itself to death through splits into different camps that struggle to solve the same problem and cannot stand for the long term by themselves. If the Linux world implodes because of internal splits, then Nvidia profits by winning the arguments about not opening up their drivers.

    I think it's time to get your popcorn out.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by JMB9 View Post

      I would agree with the 1st part - this LTS really is not up to the quality of former times.
      But while KDE is making extreme progress to use Wayland, Wayland is still not as stable as X - and stability is the most important thing before "security" is concerned
      (and higher security was only stated till now - not proven by experience).
      Additionally, a lot of features are lacking ... so I would be Ok to live the next years with X as long as Wayland is really superior.

      But we will see if KDE neon "User edition" will be powered by Wayland - or if Devs come to the conclusion that KDE neon would lack stability if Wayland is used now and stay with X.

      Concerning the LTS a lot of unstable things were pushed and a lot of regressions were introduced - the resulting problems were not even taken care for ...
      so I would not be astonished if 22.04.1 is less stable than 20.04.1 was (and it was not that good either).
      Maybe Ubuntu aims for the warm feeling of being at home for Windows user making the switch ... crashes included ...
      Mah! Maybe in some use cases, but on a normal notebook with AMD graphics to me the latest version of Plasma works flawlessly, never crashed, and does not lack any functionality, indeed there are features that are not available on Xorg I am. For example, the gestures of Gnome and those arriving in Plasma.
      Security ... a script is enough to compromise Xorg privacy and security, arguing that this is not a problem now that the problem is known is absurd.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
        IMHO all these half-assed attempts only serve to hurt Wayland in the short-term (and also feed the anti-Wayland trolls). Why is it so difficult to admit that Wayland is the future, but that it just isn't yet quite ready for that future?
        This.

        There is probably a need felt to move forward to Wayland because X.org is abandonware. One rock is named "abandonware" and the other rock is named "nvidia's driver", which as we see is quite a hard place to deal with.

        That's right where we are stuck. Between the rock and the hard place.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

          There's nothing to be fixed. The problem is squarely with nvidia's drivers, and only with their drivers. Not going forward with wayland in its buggy-but-workable state on their cards just allows nvidia to wallow forever. Everyone else on intel and AMD will never see a single bug, and it's time people started to associate nvidia's failings with nvidia.

          Frankly, this is exactly what nvidia-linux users deserve, and I say that as someone using one of their cards right now. The writing has been on the wall for YEARS that if you use an nvidia card you WILL have a worse experience. Nobody remembers it because ubuntu do an amazing job packaging the nvidia drivers these days, but installing the nvidia driver manually on linux used to be horrible and unbeleivably breakage-prone.
          Yes because going implicit sync when entire world (Android, Windows, Mantle, Vulkan, Metal, DX12) is going explicit sync was such good idea. And the worst thing is implicit sync the more complex situation is, the more bottlenecked it will be.

          Nvidia communicated for long time : We cannot do it, entire driver is designed with explicit sync in mind. Implicit sync means either we get noticable performance penalty, and also means Vulkan etc. issues. 1 year ago AMD developer also signalled we have to redesign MESA in direction of explicit sync. And almost every single Nvidia problem in linux stack originate to that implicit sync.

          Comment


          • #45
            You all want still bleeding-edge (NVIDIA Wayland) on LTS...

            Comment


            • #46
              phoronix this sentence is accidentally duplicated in the article: "But this week prior to Ubuntu 22.04 being released, NVIDIA requested to Ubuntu/Canonical that they change their default to X.Org on NVIDIA-only systems."

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                Hardware isn't the issue. nvidia chose to go their own way with their drivers, and now they need to fix their drivers because the rest of the world went the other way.
                I think it partly is hardware. They've been doing excessive buffering stuff for years. The hardware probably needs be asynchronous to keep the FPS numbers up, and it loses a ton of performance by being low-latency. That's not to say explicit sync shouldn't be used in Wayland. At this point it's unpredictable when the output buffer hits the screen, what's being discarded, when direct scanout happens, etc. That makes it difficult for developers to avoid microstutter and input lag.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by zexelon View Post

                  Actually hardware is always the issue, and its up to the OS to support it, or accept that the market that uses that hardware wont be reachable. The world did NOT go the other way... in fact almost no one in the world went the other way. Wayland went the other way and quite frankly 99% of the world doesn't care. Linux on the desktop (aka the people who would use Wayland over X) accounts for less than 3% of the desktop market.

                  Its hard to find good stats for hardware usage by OS, the best I could readily find was the Steam Hardware Survey done in March (sourced from here). Downloading and parsing the data on the GPU stats specific to Linux users I get the following breakdown:
                  Row Labels Sum of Percentage
                  AMD 26.20%
                  NVIDIA 37.63%
                  Other 36.17%
                  Grand Total 100.00%

                  As you can see the majority of Linux users who would be using a Linux desktop are actually still NVIDIA users, who clearly are putting their money where they feel its best. Nvidia actually has absolutely no need to court the Linux Wayland evangelists. The whole 100% above still only represents <3% of all sales in the market. Taken all together Nvidia has 77%+ market share in the desktop... so yah as much as Linus T. may throw the bird at Nvidia... they will just send him back to the corner for a time out and not care one bit, because honestly the onus is on the Linux community to support hardware (Nvidia included).
                  Nvidia are the only GPU manufacturer that has this problem. They went their own way while AMD, linux, and everyone else did not.

                  I will add that indeed linux has bent over backwards to support terminally-broken hardware for decades, including finding an efficient fix for the intel FOOF bug. But at a certain point vendors deserve to be burned for their mistakes and their users burned for supporting them despite profuse warning.
                  Last edited by Developer12; 23 April 2022, 06:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                    There's nothing to be fixed. The problem is squarely with nvidia's drivers, and only with their drivers. Not going forward with wayland in its buggy-but-workable state on their cards just allows nvidia to wallow forever. Everyone else on intel and AMD will never see a single bug, and it's time people started to associate nvidia's failings with nvidia.
                    Lol dude what are you smoking? Check the freedesktop issue tracker. There are hundreds of Intel/amdgpu bugs. Where can I buy this 100% bug free experience?

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                      Hardware isn't the issue. nvidia chose to go their own way with their drivers, and now they need to fix their drivers because the rest of the world went the other way.
                      I'm trying to look at the problem from Cononical's POV. Their user has a piece of hardware from nvidia, it works when using X, works sort-of when using Wayland. Should they try to force nvidia to fix the driver or keep their user happy?

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X