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  • nado
    replied
    Originally posted by mbello View Post
    There is nothing kiddie about Ubuntu.
    I use and like both distros, but for desktop I much prefer Ubuntu with snaps, ppas, hardware drivers, updated hwe kernels and the availability of newer releases every 6 months (on laptop I don't need LTS, but i usually do stay on LTS releases).
    For servers, if it is my own server Debian and Ubuntu are equally fine. If is it cloud or a container image I usually have more options with Ubuntu.

    Last but not least, if you are feeling tempted to move to Debian now because it is fresh out, you will be back on Ubuntu's camp quite soon.
    This would have been the case last time Debian released, but now we have Flatpaks and AppImages that fill that void. I've been concerned about the feature creep with Ubuntu for a while now, seeing as they have slowly replaced certain system apps and the app store with Snap versions. Seeing as they're backed by a for-profit entity, Canonical, I don't quite trust their motives. Debian is maintained and supported by the community, so their motives are quite clear in this regard, and Flatpaks work wonderfully here (I'm sure AppImages do as well). So for anyone who wishes to try out Ubuntu as their daily driver I would urge them to take a look at Debian as well, there isn't really much to gain from using Ubuntu anymore.

    Leave a comment:


  • mppix
    replied
    I hope you don't mind if I only respond to 'my' section

    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
    On the topic of distros being usable or not usable, we really shouldn't be taking into account the emergence of Flatpak, as it is a cross-desktop technology concept that will ultimately render all these discussions moot in the long-term.
    IMO, we should. Distros are largely a base nowadays and I don't know if there is much to distrohopping in 2021 other than finding out what defaults individual distributions use. I have zero issues switching between Debian or Fedora (or Arch, but personally, I find the Arch concept more cumbersome - this should not mean that it is not great for someone else).

    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
    Debian on its own is an incredibly stale distro when it comes to software and library versions, which as a paradigm certainly has its very valid use cases (servers and workstations, as already mentioned) but on a desktop it's detrimental because desktops, especially Linux desktops which are still far from a complete product in more than a few ways (graphics stack, audio stack, DE usability, etc), by their nature need to be updated fairly frequently in order to stay relevant and also secure.
    This is IMO a preference. Some prefer a more stable distro on their work laptop. If I'm going into an important meeting, I prefer that the laptop does not crash unexpectedly.

    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
    Debian makes Linux look bad to newcomers because, in a nutshell, it provides a state of Linux of a few years back and/or in weird configurations, and in Linux this all too often means a broken experience (great current examples are gaming performance and Wayland, and also Pipewire in a smaller degree); it also makes it hard for users to update their apps into their most up to date versions, which also results in a bad experience because most users expect to be able to roll with the current trends and use the new and shiny stuff they've read about on Reddit or seen on YouTube. Do note that at this point in time, when we say "newcomers" we don't (or shouldn't) mean the general population but rather the more enthusiastic users that have actively sought out to install and try Linux. In an even smaller nutshell, think the Steam Deck and why Valve went with Arch instead of Debian.
    There is Debian stable, Debian testing, and Debian SID, for you to choose from.
    Assuming that you only refer to stable, I'd still disagree. Debian gets the latest software before soft-freeze and remains the up-to-date version for about 2 years. In this time, the DE is not updated. So what?
    Win10 UI was not updated either..
    If you want more, use Debian testing, or SID.

    Regarding applications, even on Debian stable, you can use backports that give you access to pretty much all o the latest software (often ESR versions).
    If you want more, use Debian testing, or SID, or Flatpak.


    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
    Debian being the mother/source of a great many distros doesn't prove nothing other than it being a (very) good base Linux system, which is something about Debian no one really disputes. But being a good base system does not mean it's also a good desktop system, which is also something that's generally not disputed about Debian.
    Well, it kind of is disputed as you can see

    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
    Lastly, I don't think it's fair to compare Debian to using WinXP in 2021, but since you've brought up the comparison, people still using WinXP in 2021 are a quantity that I consciously don't take into account when I'm discussing the validity of an OS in 2021, because the "works for me" excuse only gets you up to a certain point before it becomes irrational.
    Debian 10 is 2y old and a bit. So the current 'oldstable' is more in line with Win10
    The point of my statement was that some folks really like the UI that they are used to, nothing more.
    Last edited by mppix; 18 August 2021, 02:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nocifer
    replied
    Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...

    Originally posted by mppix View Post
    ...
    On the topic of distros being usable or not usable, we really shouldn't be taking into account the emergence of Flatpak, as it is a cross-desktop technology concept that will ultimately render all these discussions moot in the long-term.

    Debian on its own is an incredibly stale distro when it comes to software and library versions, which as a paradigm certainly has its very valid use cases (servers and workstations, as already mentioned) but on a desktop it's detrimental because desktops, especially Linux desktops which are still far from a complete product in more than a few ways (graphics stack, audio stack, DE usability, etc), by their nature need to be updated fairly frequently in order to stay relevant and also secure.

    Debian makes Linux look bad to newcomers because, in a nutshell, it provides a state of Linux of a few years back and/or in weird configurations, and in Linux this all too often means a broken experience (great current examples are gaming performance and Wayland, and also Pipewire in a smaller degree); it also makes it hard for users to update their apps into their most up to date versions, which also results in a bad experience because most users expect to be able to roll with the current trends and use the new and shiny stuff they've read about on Reddit or seen on YouTube. Do note that at this point in time, when we say "newcomers" we don't (or shouldn't) mean the general population but rather the more enthusiastic users that have actively sought out to install and try Linux. In an even smaller nutshell, think the Steam Deck and why Valve went with Arch instead of Debian.

    Debian being the mother/source of a great many distros doesn't prove nothing other than it being a (very) good base Linux system, which is something about Debian no one really disputes. But being a good base system does not mean it's also a good desktop system, which is also something that's generally not disputed about Debian.

    Lastly, I don't think it's fair to compare Debian to using WinXP in 2021, but since you've brought up the comparison, people still using WinXP in 2021 are a quantity that I consciously don't take into account when I'm discussing the validity of an OS in 2021, because the "works for me" excuse only gets you up to a certain point before it becomes irrational.

    Originally posted by extremesquared View Post
    ...
    People in 2015 managed to use Linux in the same way they managed to use dumbphones in 2005. But try to sell a dumbphone to the general crowd in 2021 and see where that gets you.

    And yes, old desktop software is practically unusable when it comes to modern expectations and requirements, not to mention compatibility, in the same way that old hardware is unusable. Does that mean you really can't use old software & hardware for anything at all? No. Does it mean the experience is sub-par and prone to issues? Yes.

    Originally posted by pmorph View Post
    ...
    Well, you're a special use case. And while I understand your point of view, I can do so only up to a point before I dismiss it as irrational. Just like I do for all those people that still insist on using e.g. WinXP or dumbphones in 2021 for the same reason as you, because "it works for them".

    Originally posted by wswartzendruber View Post
    If I am noticing issues, it's too damned unstable.
    Well, yeah, that's why I said that most "issues" on an "unstable" system are practically non-issues and people would never notice them. Most software bugs are harmless as far as usability is concerned.

    Debian doesn't randomly lockup all input until I lock and unlock the computer. Debian doesn't keep my display from coming back on after it shuts off. Debian doesn't randomly boot with the CPU running at 10% speed (took forever just to restart whenever that happened). Debian doesn't randomly reduce mouse scrolling sensitivity down to 1/8 normal until I disconnect and reconnect the mouse.

    These were all issues I had with Ubuntu 20.04 and their LOL take on "LTS."
    Even if all these issues with Ubuntu were real exactly as you describe them (I personally don't believe so, because it would be widely known in the Linux community), most Linux distros don't have them, so you should blame Ubuntu and not blindly love Debian. In other words, the special case here is Ubuntu in a bad sense, and not Debian in a good sense. Lastly, even if Debian is more stable or bug-free than Ubuntu, that doesn't invalidate all the other shortcomings it's generally known for (when it comes to being used on the desktop).

    If you prefer incompetently-managed distributions, you are welcome to keep your mediocrity to yourself.
    Spoken like a true fanboy. Kudos to you sir.

    Originally posted by moilami View Post
    ...
    What you describe is workstation use, not desktop use. And believe you me, it shows that you've been using Linux exclusively for 21 years. Only people with your kind of mindset would ever be able to champion using Linux as a desktop exclusively back in the '00s.

    Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
    ...
    Again, a (very) special use case. Nothing wrong with that, but statistically irrelevant and thus objectively (i.e. to the eyes of the average person) utterly incomprehensible. And also, as you yourself said, a use case that has nothing to do with Debian and its qualities as a distro. You could be using LFS or Arch or Gentoo and you'd have the exact same experience and level of stability, because we're no longer talking about a "100% stable" preassembled system.

    Leave a comment:


  • reba
    replied
    The previous two comments really show the whole spectrum possible with a solid but still flexible base.
    Thank you both for your input, it was nice to read your personal preferences and approaches.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sonadow
    replied
    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    I've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.

    Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?



    Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.



    Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.

    Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.
    Debian is up-to-date at the point in time just before the soft freeze.

    Secondly, I roll my own kernels and applications from upstream source code. So it completely doesn't matter what version of the kernel, of Mesa, of libdrm, of Chromium, of Firefox or Libreoffice ships bundled with Debian, because I build the latest git versions of them every week.

    Leave a comment:


  • moilami
    replied
    Originally posted by Nocifer View Post
    I've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.

    Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?



    Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.



    Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.

    Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.
    Debian Stable is great for Desktop if you actually want to get your work done, instead of toying with various "updades". You configure everything once, and then it is like totally trouble free next two years, and requires minimum attendance.

    General software tend to be so highly developed and mature that I could use about 10 years old software in many cases without any issues. So this "outdated" software does not hold ground. Software is not food. It does not become waste.

    There are certain software I prefer to get the latest versions, and those I can get from Debian Backports. *I* chose my updates on Debian Stable instead of getting tons of updates every day I never wanted to get, like in Android gadgets. And I chose to get only security updates and updates to a few special software I need.

    When I make a fresh install I use
    Code:
    apt install <package>/buster-backports
    to get certain software updated from Backports automatically whenever a new version of said software is available there.

    This way I have minimal hassle maximum trouble free desktop for two years at a time, and there is no fiddling I need to do. Because of this I install Debian everywhere, and don't have to do anything after the first install and configuration.

    I have used Linux exclusively for 21 years, got two degrees along the way, done most of my work with Linux too. I have used used several distros, and since the Debian Backports there is not even a contest on what is the best desktop for real things and not toying around.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sonadow
    replied
    Installed it into my Optimus laptop, severe regression found.

    In Buster, I could run a Plasma Wayland session with the Nvidia card under Nouveau by passing DRI_PRIME to the start command.

    In Bullseye, doing so results in rainbow colours and a garbled display. Had to force Plasma Wayland to run in software rendering mode to get a desktop.

    Gnome Wayland appears fine so far.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanL
    replied
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    GNOME 3.38?
    No GNOME 40?
    The new Debian 11 seems already outdated.
    If you think GNOME 3.38 is outdated then you are not the intended audience for Debian stable and you have no business in this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • wswartzendruber
    replied
    Originally posted by Leinad View Post

    You had just bad luck. Kernel is big and its device drivers testing is not as good as it should be.
    Here's a hot take: Bleeding-edge software hasn't had the kinks worked out yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leinad
    replied
    Originally posted by wswartzendruber View Post
    Your assumption of trolling is false. There were three Ubuntu systems in my house. A desktop, a laptop, and a server. Only the server was free of issue.

    Desktop

    OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
    Motherboard: ASUS Prime X570-P
    CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
    GPU: ASUS Radeon RX 5600 XT EVO Dual
    RAM: 128 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3,200 MHz
    SSD: Seagate FireCuda 520 1TB

    This machine is the one that would semi-frequently boot up at crippled speeds. It's also the one that would sometimes not have the display come back on after going off. It did experience the issue of the mouse wheel scroll sensitivity decreasing until that device was unplugged and replugged.

    Laptop

    OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
    Model: Lenovo ThinkPad T495
    APU: AMD Ryzen 5 3500U
    SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 1TB

    This machine did better overall. It always started up at full speed, but sometimes all input would die until I locked and unlocked the screen. Which strange, because if input is really dead, why did <WinKey>+L still work? This machine also exhibited the issue of mousewheel sensitivity going down until the mouse was unplugged and replugged.

    Server

    OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Server
    Motherboard: ASUS Prime A320I-K
    APU: AMD Athlon 220GE
    RAM: 16 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 2,667 MHz
    SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 250 GB
    HDD: Seagate IronWolf Pro 4TB (x3, RAID-Z)

    This machine had flawless reliability.

    Concluding Thoughts

    I noticed that on the Server OS, Canonical has the kernel pinned to 5.4, which is an LTS release. Debian 11, which I have had zero issues with across these three machines, is also on an LTS release: 5.10.

    The Desktop OS also started at 5.4, but then went to 5.8 (not LTS), and now it's at 5.11 (also not LTS). Now my desktop and laptop only ran 5.11 for a few days before going to Debian 11. In that time, I didn't have any issues, suggesting that at least most of my problems were caused by the 5.8 kernel. But that begs the question........

    Why didn't Canonical take Desktop Ubuntu from 5.4 (LTS) to 5.10 (LTS), instead of putting everyone through that crappy 5.8 kernel?
    You had just bad luck. Kernel is big and its device drivers testing is not as good as it should be.

    Leave a comment:

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