Originally posted by Leinad
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Debian 11 "Bullseye" Released
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Installed it into my Optimus laptop, severe regression found.
In Buster, I could run a Plasma Wayland session with the Nvidia card under Nouveau by passing DRI_PRIME to the start command.
In Bullseye, doing so results in rainbow colours and a garbled display. Had to force Plasma Wayland to run in software rendering mode to get a desktop.
Gnome Wayland appears fine so far.
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Originally posted by Nocifer View PostI've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.
Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?
Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.
Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.
Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.
General software tend to be so highly developed and mature that I could use about 10 years old software in many cases without any issues. So this "outdated" software does not hold ground. Software is not food. It does not become waste.
There are certain software I prefer to get the latest versions, and those I can get from Debian Backports. *I* chose my updates on Debian Stable instead of getting tons of updates every day I never wanted to get, like in Android gadgets. And I chose to get only security updates and updates to a few special software I need.
When I make a fresh install I useCode:apt install <package>/buster-backports
This way I have minimal hassle maximum trouble free desktop for two years at a time, and there is no fiddling I need to do. Because of this I install Debian everywhere, and don't have to do anything after the first install and configuration.
I have used Linux exclusively for 21 years, got two degrees along the way, done most of my work with Linux too. I have used used several distros, and since the Debian Backports there is not even a contest on what is the best desktop for real things and not toying around.
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Originally posted by Nocifer View PostI've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.
Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?
Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.
Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.
Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.
Secondly, I roll my own kernels and applications from upstream source code. So it completely doesn't matter what version of the kernel, of Mesa, of libdrm, of Chromium, of Firefox or Libreoffice ships bundled with Debian, because I build the latest git versions of them every week.
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Heh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
Originally posted by mppix View Post...
Debian on its own is an incredibly stale distro when it comes to software and library versions, which as a paradigm certainly has its very valid use cases (servers and workstations, as already mentioned) but on a desktop it's detrimental because desktops, especially Linux desktops which are still far from a complete product in more than a few ways (graphics stack, audio stack, DE usability, etc), by their nature need to be updated fairly frequently in order to stay relevant and also secure.
Debian makes Linux look bad to newcomers because, in a nutshell, it provides a state of Linux of a few years back and/or in weird configurations, and in Linux this all too often means a broken experience (great current examples are gaming performance and Wayland, and also Pipewire in a smaller degree); it also makes it hard for users to update their apps into their most up to date versions, which also results in a bad experience because most users expect to be able to roll with the current trends and use the new and shiny stuff they've read about on Reddit or seen on YouTube. Do note that at this point in time, when we say "newcomers" we don't (or shouldn't) mean the general population but rather the more enthusiastic users that have actively sought out to install and try Linux. In an even smaller nutshell, think the Steam Deck and why Valve went with Arch instead of Debian.
Debian being the mother/source of a great many distros doesn't prove nothing other than it being a (very) good base Linux system, which is something about Debian no one really disputes. But being a good base system does not mean it's also a good desktop system, which is also something that's generally not disputed about Debian.
Lastly, I don't think it's fair to compare Debian to using WinXP in 2021, but since you've brought up the comparison, people still using WinXP in 2021 are a quantity that I consciously don't take into account when I'm discussing the validity of an OS in 2021, because the "works for me" excuse only gets you up to a certain point before it becomes irrational.
Originally posted by extremesquared View Post...
And yes, old desktop software is practically unusable when it comes to modern expectations and requirements, not to mention compatibility, in the same way that old hardware is unusable. Does that mean you really can't use old software & hardware for anything at all? No. Does it mean the experience is sub-par and prone to issues? Yes.
Originally posted by pmorph View Post...
Originally posted by wswartzendruber View PostIf I am noticing issues, it's too damned unstable.
Debian doesn't randomly lockup all input until I lock and unlock the computer. Debian doesn't keep my display from coming back on after it shuts off. Debian doesn't randomly boot with the CPU running at 10% speed (took forever just to restart whenever that happened). Debian doesn't randomly reduce mouse scrolling sensitivity down to 1/8 normal until I disconnect and reconnect the mouse.
These were all issues I had with Ubuntu 20.04 and their LOL take on "LTS."
If you prefer incompetently-managed distributions, you are welcome to keep your mediocrity to yourself.
Originally posted by moilami View Post...
Originally posted by Sonadow View Post...
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I hope you don't mind if I only respond to 'my' section
Originally posted by Nocifer View PostHeh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
On the topic of distros being usable or not usable, we really shouldn't be taking into account the emergence of Flatpak, as it is a cross-desktop technology concept that will ultimately render all these discussions moot in the long-term.
Originally posted by Nocifer View PostHeh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
Debian on its own is an incredibly stale distro when it comes to software and library versions, which as a paradigm certainly has its very valid use cases (servers and workstations, as already mentioned) but on a desktop it's detrimental because desktops, especially Linux desktops which are still far from a complete product in more than a few ways (graphics stack, audio stack, DE usability, etc), by their nature need to be updated fairly frequently in order to stay relevant and also secure.
Originally posted by Nocifer View PostHeh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
Debian makes Linux look bad to newcomers because, in a nutshell, it provides a state of Linux of a few years back and/or in weird configurations, and in Linux this all too often means a broken experience (great current examples are gaming performance and Wayland, and also Pipewire in a smaller degree); it also makes it hard for users to update their apps into their most up to date versions, which also results in a bad experience because most users expect to be able to roll with the current trends and use the new and shiny stuff they've read about on Reddit or seen on YouTube. Do note that at this point in time, when we say "newcomers" we don't (or shouldn't) mean the general population but rather the more enthusiastic users that have actively sought out to install and try Linux. In an even smaller nutshell, think the Steam Deck and why Valve went with Arch instead of Debian.
Assuming that you only refer to stable, I'd still disagree. Debian gets the latest software before soft-freeze and remains the up-to-date version for about 2 years. In this time, the DE is not updated. So what?
Win10 UI was not updated either..
If you want more, use Debian testing, or SID.
Regarding applications, even on Debian stable, you can use backports that give you access to pretty much all o the latest software (often ESR versions).
If you want more, use Debian testing, or SID, or Flatpak.
Originally posted by Nocifer View PostHeh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
Debian being the mother/source of a great many distros doesn't prove nothing other than it being a (very) good base Linux system, which is something about Debian no one really disputes. But being a good base system does not mean it's also a good desktop system, which is also something that's generally not disputed about Debian.
Originally posted by Nocifer View PostHeh, it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Alright, let's see...
Lastly, I don't think it's fair to compare Debian to using WinXP in 2021, but since you've brought up the comparison, people still using WinXP in 2021 are a quantity that I consciously don't take into account when I'm discussing the validity of an OS in 2021, because the "works for me" excuse only gets you up to a certain point before it becomes irrational.
The point of my statement was that some folks really like the UI that they are used to, nothing more.Last edited by mppix; 18 August 2021, 02:26 PM.
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Originally posted by mbello View PostThere is nothing kiddie about Ubuntu.
I use and like both distros, but for desktop I much prefer Ubuntu with snaps, ppas, hardware drivers, updated hwe kernels and the availability of newer releases every 6 months (on laptop I don't need LTS, but i usually do stay on LTS releases).
For servers, if it is my own server Debian and Ubuntu are equally fine. If is it cloud or a container image I usually have more options with Ubuntu.
Last but not least, if you are feeling tempted to move to Debian now because it is fresh out, you will be back on Ubuntu's camp quite soon.
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