Debian 11 "Bullseye" Released

[Nocifer]

I've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.

Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?

I like Debian and I run it and Devuan on some computers, but I've never understood why the freeze packages that are clearly in active development and clearly broken.
For example, why freeze PipeWire at 3.19 (which doesn't really work that well), when they could bump the version on something that isn't default anyways and get bugs ironed out for the next release?
Freezing based on date and not actual bugs seems kinda weird to me.

Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.

Outdated, and completely stable.

Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.

Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.

[SkyWarrior]

The very first usability bug has just landed on sid.

Anyone using sid. revert powertop back to 2.11 or your mouse and keyboard will start acting.

[mppix]

I've never been able to understand how some people like, and can even be enthusiastic over, using Debian on a desktop. On a server or a workstation it more than makes sense to use old-ish but rock-solid software with few if any updates, but on a normal desktop, especially one like modern Linux where things are in a constant state of flux and being improved upon, it's not even worth to laugh about.

Also, reading comments about distro hopping in 2021.5 is making me all giddy and nostalgic inside. So apparently it's still a thing nowadays, huh?


Because that's how Debian likes to roll, and that's one of the core reasons for why it not only isn't suitable for a desktop, but is actually making Linux look bad to people trying to get into it and picking Debian as their first distro (because they didn't know any better). Again, Debian on a server/workstation makes sense, but on a desktop it's a recipe for disaster.


Here's an idea for you to have the absolutely most stablest system in the world: plug it off the wall. It's so stable you can even use it as a door prop.

Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.

I'm not sure if I read your post well but I find it unclear/misleading.
For context, I tend to use Debian as follows: servers (Debian stable), workstation (Debian stable+backports), pc/laptop (Debian testing, or if I feel like playing with it more, Debian sid). I also use Fedora on pc/laptops.

I agree with your statement that distro-hopping in 2021 is largely mood. You can achieve pretty much anything on any distribution. However, this also means that there is no issue with running Debian stable on a laptop. It is perfectly usable as-is. However, it is also simple to install flatpak (and if you have to, also snap) on any system and you get the latest software (even on oldstable).

This being said, I don't understand how Debian makes Linux look bad - it certainly works and is the 'mother/source' for a majority of the installed Linux systems out there, including Ubuntu, Mint, PopOS, and RaspberryPI OS.
I also don't understand why or how if could be a 'recipe for disaster'. It may not be for you but there were a lot of people still running XP even when Win 10 came out. A Debian stable install needs much less attention than rolling releases or Fedora for example (few updates required that pretty much guarantee that nothing breaks).

[extremesquared]

Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.

Following the line of thought that 1-2 year "out of date" desktop software is unusable, one would wonder how anyone managed to use linux desktops at all in 2015. Must have been basically impossible to do anything. Desktop linux before 2010 was just a couple rocks being banged together.

[pmorph]

Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.

Well, there you have your answer: "most" people, not all of the people. I install the apps I need, which work for me the way I need them to work. Whatever a rolling distro could (maybe, maybe not) improve/add on top of that over time is completely irrelevant to me. Most of the time attempts on that would only annoy me.

[wswartzendruber]

Joking aside, unless you're talking about a server/workstation (I know, I'm repeating myself) "complete stability" is overrated, especially when it comes at the expense of functionality. Most people can live just fine with your average "unstable" Linux system, and I guarantee you that they'll most likely never even notice the little inconsistencies that may arise from time to time due to the less-than-100% stability.

If I am noticing issues, it's too damned unstable.

Debian doesn't randomly lockup all input until I lock and unlock the computer. Debian doesn't keep my display from coming back on after it shuts off. Debian doesn't randomly boot with the CPU running at 10% speed (took forever just to restart whenever that happened). Debian doesn't randomly reduce mouse scrolling sensitivity down to 1/8 normal until I disconnect and reconnect the mouse.

These were all issues I had with Ubuntu 20.04 and their LOL take on "LTS."

If you prefer incompetently-managed distributions, you are welcome to keep your mediocrity to yourself.

[Linuxxx]

If I am noticing issues, it's too damned unstable.

Debian doesn't randomly lockup all input until I lock and unlock the computer. Debian doesn't keep my display from coming back on after it shuts off. Debian doesn't randomly boot with the CPU running at 10% speed (took forever just to restart whenever that happened). Debian doesn't randomly reduce mouse scrolling sensitivity down to 1/8 normal until I disconnect and reconnect the mouse.

These were all issues I had with Ubuntu 20.04 and their LOL take on "LTS."

If you prefer incompetently-managed distributions, you are welcome to keep your mediocrity to yourself.

I never had any of the ridiculous issues you just made up out of thin air on multiple Ubuntu 20.04 LTS installations.
And apparently neither any of the multi-billion dollar corporations relying on it to run their daily business.

If you prefer outdated distributions run by hobbyists, you are welcome to keep your trolling to yourself.

[mppix]

Following the line of thought that 1-2 year "out of date" desktop software is unusable, one would wonder how anyone managed to use linux desktops at all in 2015. Must have been basically impossible to do anything. Desktop linux before 2010 was just a couple rocks being banged together.

1-2year is also wrong.
Debian stable tends to ship with the latest version of the desktop that was available _before_ soft freeze. In the case of Gnome, this was 3.38.
This was also a smart move because Gnome 40 is a much larger update that would have extended the freeze period. Similar discussion with pipewire of audio.
It is better to do these things in the testing period to iron out all issues.

[wswartzendruber]

I never had any of the ridiculous issues you just made up out of thin air on multiple Ubuntu 20.04 LTS installations.
And apparently neither any of the multi-billion dollar corporations relying on it to run their daily business.

If you prefer outdated distributions run by hobbyists, you are welcome to keep your trolling to yourself.

Your assumption of trolling is false. There were three Ubuntu systems in my house. A desktop, a laptop, and a server. Only the server was free of issue.

Desktop

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
Motherboard: ASUS Prime X570-P
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
GPU: ASUS Radeon RX 5600 XT EVO Dual
RAM: 128 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3,200 MHz
SSD: Seagate FireCuda 520 1TB

This machine is the one that would semi-frequently boot up at crippled speeds. It's also the one that would sometimes not have the display come back on after going off. It did experience the issue of the mouse wheel scroll sensitivity decreasing until that device was unplugged and replugged.

Laptop

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
Model: Lenovo ThinkPad T495
APU: AMD Ryzen 5 3500U
SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 1TB

This machine did better overall. It always started up at full speed, but sometimes all input would die until I locked and unlocked the screen. Which strange, because if input is really dead, why did <WinKey>+L still work? This machine also exhibited the issue of mousewheel sensitivity going down until the mouse was unplugged and replugged.

Server

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Server
Motherboard: ASUS Prime A320I-K
APU: AMD Athlon 220GE
RAM: 16 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 2,667 MHz
SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 250 GB
HDD: Seagate IronWolf Pro 4TB (x3, RAID-Z)

This machine had flawless reliability.

Concluding Thoughts

I noticed that on the Server OS, Canonical has the kernel pinned to 5.4, which is an LTS release. Debian 11, which I have had zero issues with across these three machines, is also on an LTS release: 5.10.

The Desktop OS also started at 5.4, but then went to 5.8 (not LTS), and now it's at 5.11 (also not LTS). Now my desktop and laptop only ran 5.11 for a few days before going to Debian 11. In that time, I didn't have any issues, suggesting that at least most of my problems were caused by the 5.8 kernel. But that begs the question........

Why didn't Canonical take Desktop Ubuntu from 5.4 (LTS) to 5.10 (LTS), instead of putting everyone through that crappy 5.8 kernel?

[Leinad]

Your assumption of trolling is false. There were three Ubuntu systems in my house. A desktop, a laptop, and a server. Only the server was free of issue.

Desktop

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
Motherboard: ASUS Prime X570-P
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
GPU: ASUS Radeon RX 5600 XT EVO Dual
RAM: 128 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3,200 MHz
SSD: Seagate FireCuda 520 1TB

This machine is the one that would semi-frequently boot up at crippled speeds. It's also the one that would sometimes not have the display come back on after going off. It did experience the issue of the mouse wheel scroll sensitivity decreasing until that device was unplugged and replugged.

Laptop

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Desktop
Model: Lenovo ThinkPad T495
APU: AMD Ryzen 5 3500U
SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 1TB

This machine did better overall. It always started up at full speed, but sometimes all input would die until I locked and unlocked the screen. Which strange, because if input is really dead, why did <WinKey>+L still work? This machine also exhibited the issue of mousewheel sensitivity going down until the mouse was unplugged and replugged.

Server

OS: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Server
Motherboard: ASUS Prime A320I-K
APU: AMD Athlon 220GE
RAM: 16 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR4 2,667 MHz
SSD: Seagate BarraCuda 120 250 GB
HDD: Seagate IronWolf Pro 4TB (x3, RAID-Z)

This machine had flawless reliability.

Concluding Thoughts

I noticed that on the Server OS, Canonical has the kernel pinned to 5.4, which is an LTS release. Debian 11, which I have had zero issues with across these three machines, is also on an LTS release: 5.10.

The Desktop OS also started at 5.4, but then went to 5.8 (not LTS), and now it's at 5.11 (also not LTS). Now my desktop and laptop only ran 5.11 for a few days before going to Debian 11. In that time, I didn't have any issues, suggesting that at least most of my problems were caused by the 5.8 kernel. But that begs the question........

Why didn't Canonical take Desktop Ubuntu from 5.4 (LTS) to 5.10 (LTS), instead of putting everyone through that crappy 5.8 kernel?

You had just bad luck. Kernel is big and its device drivers testing is not as good as it should be.