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Debian Improves Docs To Inform Users Their Systems Might Not Work Without Non-Free Firmware

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  • #41
    Originally posted by calc View Post
    Essentially what happened with Debian was that Ubuntu was released in Oct 2004 and all the users/developers that cared about usability switched. Leaving only the hardcore FSF users/developers on Debian. From what I recall prior to the release of Ubuntu Debian still shipped working drivers with firmware as actual usability still mattered.
    Debian can be installed with all non-free firmware. Its as easy as getting separate, non-free installer image from their website. It's just not default, but available. But that's too complicated for lazy people so they say Debian is too hard and unusable and they go back to Ubuntu.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by piorunz View Post

      Debian can be installed with all non-free firmware. Its as easy as getting separate, non-free installer image from their website. It's just not default, but available. But that's too complicated for lazy people so they say Debian is too hard and unusable and they go back to Ubuntu.
      I was a DD maintaining hundreds of packages prior to Ubuntu being released and switched. People are inherently lazy so when there is a clearly better option they take it. Especially when in this case the reason for intentionally making it harder was just that RMS doesn't like running firmware from ram instead of burned in rom/eprom.

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      • #43
        Not including firmware feels like an "expert mode" to me. There should be a disk that works that way (like the GNU deblobbed kernel everyone complains about for some reason), but the default download from Debian.org should try its best to work.

        Even experienced users are not going to enjoy the "now go and find firmware for your network card" stage of the install. I mean what are you going to do? (1) not use the hardware or (2) go and get the firmware anyway....

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        • #44
          Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
          There is an element of Linux trying to do the right thing and prioritize "open" devices, including firmware.
          If the project doesn't show preference for the correct stuff, what is the point?

          I suppose Debian are already being "assholes" to their users by not providing them with a fully functional install of Windows? If they want that, they know where to get it. Likewise if they want an easier ride, they know where to get Ubuntu. What would be the point of Debian providing the same experience as either of those other products?
          by prioritizing "open" devices you sacrifice vast majority of people who don't have that kind of hardware. it's a real hassle to do wifi netinstall of debian. doubly so if you are new to linux. i would bet most people would just give it up at this point, not being able to get their hardware running.

          it's fine to have principles, but it's also nice to have a choice. after all, leaving user's computer in crippled non-functional state is not really what operating system should be about.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by yoshi314 View Post

            by prioritizing "open" devices you sacrifice vast majority of people who don't have that kind of hardware. it's a real hassle to do wifi netinstall of debian. doubly so if you are new to linux. i would bet most people would just give it up at this point, not being able to get their hardware running.

            it's fine to have principles, but it's also nice to have a choice. after all, leaving user's computer in crippled non-functional state is not really what operating system should be about.
            There is a choice, in form of 100% working non-free enabled installer on Debian website. It's not default, but available for everyone. You were too lazy to check.

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            • #46
              I kind of prefer the firmware to not be included by default since it is usually outdated at the time of installation. Heck, practically everything in Debian is outdated at the time of release.

              Installing Debian without the firmware first, then getting the latest firmware from the kernel git tree and dumping it all into /usr/lib/firmware feels like the better option and allows me to be certain that I have the absolute latest firmware at the time of installation. Just don't forget to update the initramfs.
              Last edited by Sonadow; 03 August 2021, 09:10 PM.

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              • #47
                So, again for everybody.

                Debian latest stable with firmware on disk:
                https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/u.../amd64/iso-cd/

                Debian latest stable without closed source firmware on disk:
                https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/r.../amd64/iso-cd/

                I prefer the choice eventhough I always use the nonfree image.

                off-topic:
                For me Ubuntu contains too much stuff I won't need and do not want to have on my system.
                I just do not trust Canonical and their shady offers and politics (Ubuntu One, Snap(d) not open source, Snap Store in Canonicals hands, insisting on Linux Mint to sign license agreement, ...) to build my system on, even more as they are just downstream and feed off of Debian's work for their corporate needs.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                  I kind of prefer the firmware to not be included by default since it is usually outdated at the time of installation.

                  Installing Debian without the firmware first, then getting the latest firmware from the kernel git tree and dumping it all into /usr/lib/firmware feels like the better option. Just don't forget to update the initramfs.
                  You still at times need firmware so the installer can work.



                  Debian on x86 is fairly good that you can just put the latest firmware on a fat formatted usb key in the directory firmware and put that in the machine next to the firmware less install for a local install this will work out. Over network install that you will at times be doing in a server farm or equal this unfortunately does not work out. The over network bootloaders were not design with the concept of download two images to be served up. Instead they expect a single.

                  The reality here we still don't have how to handle the firmware issue in the best possible way in all cases. Of course there are some vendor EFI implementations that go stupid when you have multi usb keys installed in the boot process.

                  I would love if the difference between standard debian and the debian with firmware was just the install need firmware was appended on the end. As in debian install process smart enough to look for a possible partitionless vfat partition hidden past the end of the image with firmware in it. This would reduce down the number of iso files need. Just think about it cat debian_installer.iso firmware.vfat >debian_installer+firmware image file would be great if it could work. Windows OEMs doing non declared partitions has been common for ages so this is something that does not upset vendor firmware booting systems.

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                  • #49
                    Why would this be a problem? As we all well know, Debian is "just a server distro"

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by discordian View Post

                      leaving out firmware needed for a device isn't prioritizing, its disabling, it's not like there are open alternatives. Further, debian is a distro, not a kernel and actually offers the firmwares on their servers.
                      Its just malevolent pain to not offer the user to install them from USB, albeit with a stern warning that Stallmans balls might get itchy if he knows what you are doing!
                      It isn't left out.
                      It is still there just under nonfree and not available if you go free software only, which I would not recommend anyway

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