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Linux Mint 20.2 Released With Cinnamon 5.0 Desktop

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  • #51
    Originally posted by furtadopires View Post

    But they have to start it sometime, like I've said in another post it's not like they need to make it default already, but at least show some signs they're working on it, and maybe release alpha builds with Wayland Cinnamon so people can already help to test it.

    Wayland is not just "a cool new project" it's the successor of x11, and if they want it to be "stable" with Cinnamon then they should begin to work on it already. Unless of course they're already doing it (without telling us), or the process of porting Cinnamon to Wayland is easier than I think.

    Personally I think culprit are the "Mint boxes" (with Nvidia cards embed), must be difficult for them to develop software that won't work properly with their on selling products, so it's better to pretend that Wayland isn't a thing already. Now that Nvidia is starting to show signs of support with xwayland, maybe they suddenly start to say "hey Wayland is now a thing and we'll start to work on it", specially if the next Ubuntu lts defaults to it.
    It's all very debatable, but IMHO, the Mint Team does not like to announce sub-par products or intentions.
    When they announce something, it's either something very close to launch or very near completion.
    I've never seen them announcing something that will ship in more than a year's time...
    So that's my tak on the whole situation.

    I believe that Wayland is at or is getting at a point where it makes sense to think about it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mint Team would come out with support ready for it the next release. But i'd also not be surprised if they didn't.

    The thing is, Mint is about stability, usability and speed.
    And if they feel they aren't hampered by X11, they can very well ignore Wayland for a while longer.
    And as long as doesn't impact the end-user, i'm ok with it, and i believe most of Mint users are also.
    Mint is not about the latest thing.
    If you're into that stuff, Fedora, or EndeavourOS are a better fit, and that's perfectly fine.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by tornado99 View Post

      The solution is to make all the system icons black .svgs which are easily invertible to white .svgs. This is exactly how KDE does it.

      And as for individual apps, such as terminal, the KDE dark taskbar is actually a dark tinted translucent color showing some of the wallpaper behind (much like Apple's dark theme). This gives greater contrast whilst still being decently dark. KDE devs have in fact put a lot of work into optimising the taskbar for high contrast in both light and dark themes.

      I presume Linux Mint can handle translucency and blur, or is that too sophisticated for them?
      I can't really answer about the level of sophistication behind the OS. But i've 'seen' them achieve some very cool things.
      Probably is more of a awareness/design thing.
      Mint was worse in the past (reggarding contrast), and if i'm not mistaken it was like 2 releases ago (Mint 20) that they improved themes and contrast, so it's a work in progress, maybe? They like to make progressive improvments that the users hardly notice.
      I remember another instance where they released a new icon set and the video icon was very hard to distinguish from the subtilte icon. I complained about it in the blog when they released the beta and it got fixed via updates in less than 24hours.
      The Mint Team is very open to constructive criticism, which is another point i love about them.
      I'm sure someone will submit a bug and they'll eventually fix it...

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      • #53
        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post

        It's all very debatable, but IMHO, the Mint Team does not like to announce sub-par products or intentions.
        They sure are doing a great job at keeping it secret then

        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post
        When they announce something, it's either something very close to launch or very near completion.
        I've never seen them announcing something that will ship in more than a year's time...
        So that's my tak on the whole situation.
        If this is the case, I don't think making it secret is the best thing to do. It's not like Cinnamon will be ready in day one once they start to support it, so it would be better for then to already release alpha builds for users to test and report bugs, in order to make a better "first stable release"

        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post
        I believe that Wayland is at or is getting at a point where it makes sense to think about it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mint Team would come out with support ready for it the next release. But i'd also not be surprised if they didn't.
        Personally I hope this is the case, specially because "wayland only" solutions will start to appear in the future, and it's bad for then to answer "You can't do this on mint, because it requires wayland"

        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post
        The thing is, Mint is about stability, usability and speed.
        My personal case, I used to use Cinnamon before (still my favorite DE in concept) and at time I was having online classes using my webcam + mic. Every time I was in the classes with a lot of people I couldn't open other tasks without the risk of my notebook stuck and I had to force turn it off and on. Searching for solutions at time, I've decide to give a chance to Wayland, and change to Gnome 3, and suddenly I didn't had those problems anymore. Did another test of using with x11 session and the same problem happened. (note that Gnome 3 is way "heavier" than Cinnamon)

        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post
        And if they feel they aren't hampered by X11, they can very well ignore Wayland for a while longer.
        And as long as doesn't impact the end-user, i'm ok with it, and i believe most of Mint users are also.
        Mint is not about the latest thing.
        They can do whatever they want with their distro, but so the users. right now x11 is still usable for most of the cases, but there will be a time where this won't be the case anymore, and the gap between this time and a stable release may turn Mint into obsolesce, and I wouldn't like this to happen since I think Mint people do a great job at taking care of "good defaults" which is a topic that I think a lot of DE developers ignore.

        Mate and XFCE (two other great DEs) are already seeing this and are doing their first steps of supporting Wayland, KDE is now treating Wayland as a first class support, and even so are struggling with some minor problems. Gnome is the most stable today, but it was years before they could get in this state.

        Originally posted by nomadewolf View Post
        If you're into that stuff, Fedora, or EndeavourOS are a better fit, and that's perfectly fine.
        I'm not using Mint anymore, while I do like it a lot, nothing will make me return to x11 (not counting xwayland), but once (if) they start to support wayland, I may change it back to

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        • #54
          Originally posted by furtadopires View Post
          Personally I hope this is the case, specially because "wayland only" solutions will start to appear in the future, and it's bad for then to answer "You can't do this on mint, because it requires wayland"
          I think that you can run Wayland in X11 and vice-versa, so we won't loose functionality.
          However there's a small performance penalty, and for games that can make the difference, if we're talking reaching 30fps or something like that.

          Originally posted by furtadopires View Post
          My personal case, I used to use Cinnamon before (still my favorite DE in concept) and at time I was having online classes using my webcam + mic. Every time I was in the classes with a lot of people I couldn't open other tasks without the risk of my notebook stuck and I had to force turn it off and on. Searching for solutions at time, I've decide to give a chance to Wayland, and change to Gnome 3, and suddenly I didn't had those problems anymore. Did another test of using with x11 session and the same problem happened. (note that Gnome 3 is way "heavier" than Cinnamon)
          There are specific use cases where one or other distro is better.
          I've also encountered issues with Mint before.
          Generally said, it's one of the, if not the, most stable/just works i've used.
          I also install it on firends' old PCs and i've tried installing Ubuntu, Elementary and Fedora, but they all prefer Mint when they see it. Never had a (newb) friend preferring other distro.

          Originally posted by furtadopires View Post
          They can do whatever they want with their distro, but so the users. right now x11 is still usable for most of the cases, but there will be a time where this won't be the case anymore, and the gap between this time and a stable release may turn Mint into obsolesce, and I wouldn't like this to happen since I think Mint people do a great job at taking care of "good defaults" which is a topic that I think a lot of DE developers ignore.
          Knowing Mint, i wouldn't be surprised if they came out with it working perfectly (or near that) out of the blue...
          X11 still works 'fine' and will work fine for years to come.
          The end user wouldn't know in a blind test if they're using X11 or Wayland.
          The bigger advantages Wayland brings are: smaller simpler code. Modern hardware design and support. And easier to maintain.
          The main reason Wayland was made was to have a display server that's easy to maintain, which x11 is not. So the most painful issues regarding x11 are actually on the developers side. It doesn't impact the end-user (much).
          So, while there more savvy people that know about Wayland and will trade Mint for other distros, Mint's target user-base won't even know or care about that...

          I've also tried dumping Mint several times in the past. But always came back running because other distros always seem to have bigger bugs, issues, etc.

          Originally posted by furtadopires View Post
          Mate and XFCE (two other great DEs) are already seeing this and are doing their first steps of supporting Wayland, KDE is now treating Wayland as a first class support, and even so are struggling with some minor problems. Gnome is the most stable today, but it was years before they could get in this state.
          Mate's project leader is Clement Lefeuvre (Mint's lead) dev.
          So you see, he's already getting his hands dirty.
          Who's to say he isn't using what he learns in Mate with Cinnamon?
          Who's to say he isn't already also working in CInnamon?

          Also, i'd like to remind you that Cinnamon is an early fork of Gnome3. Therefore, the base is very similar and it shouldn't be that difficult to port Wayland support back to Cinnamon form Gnome3...
          If they play their cards right, the Mint Team will have a fraction of the work that the Gnome3 devs had...

          Originally posted by furtadopires View Post
          I'm not using Mint anymore, while I do like it a lot, nothing will make me return to x11 (not counting xwayland), but once (if) they start to support wayland, I may change it back to

          As long as you're happy with what you're using, that's all that matters.
          Linux is about choice.
          Each distro presents their view, and each user chooses what suits them better.

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