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Ubuntu 21.04 Released With Wayland By Default, New Dark Theme

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  • #51
    Originally posted by humbug View Post
    Does freesync / variable refresh work properly on Wayland now?
    Sway has had support for VRR for a long while now and Gnome is working on it.
    KDE is also working on it as of late.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by mppix View Post
      Again, what are you talking about?
      Pipewire in Debian testing / Ubuntu are lacking the packages pipewire-pulse and pipewire-jack.
      That is true and false at least for debian.
      https://wiki.debian.org/PipeWire
      True debian testing does not have a pipewire-pulse and pipewire-jack package but it does have those libraries in a package called pipewire-audio-client-libraries. I run debian testing. I have played with pipewire pulse and pipewire jack and pipewire alsa under debian testing.

      https://packages.debian.org/bullseye...aries/filelist

      Ubuntu has the same packaging setup where the pulse/jack/alsa of pipewire are all in 1 package.

      lucrus I am more than aware how to enable pipewire I am just looking forward to the day I can do a clean install and the default is pipewire so I don't have to change anything.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by Danny3 View Post
        Waiting for Kubuntu !
        Nice that the kernel and Mesa were upgraded.
        Too bad developers didn't try to switch to Pipewire, IWD and Firefox 88, even by delaying the release a bit.
        Testing the Wayland session in real-life scenarios is more than enough for Ubuntu right now. If you add more potential problems, you'll probably end up with less users testing the release. I'm very interested in PipeWire, but I'm fine with Ubuntu not switching to it by default until at least 21.10.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by mppix View Post
          Arch users will tell you that pipewire and its pulse/jack/buetooth packages work well...
          As an Arch user, that is not my experience. Granted, I switched back to pulse two weeks ago, so some issues might have been fixed since. There are some upsides and success stories, but I've had my share of issues with it. It might work well for 80 % of users, but we need to do better than pulse before switching.

          Just use Arch if you want to experiment for yourself

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          • #55
            Originally posted by [email protected] View Post

            As an Arch user, that is not my experience. Granted, I switched back to pulse two weeks ago, so some issues might have been fixed since. There are some upsides and success stories, but I've had my share of issues with it. It might work well for 80 % of users, but we need to do better than pulse before switching.

            Just use Arch if you want to experiment for yourself
            Issues such as?
            I'm actually using it on Debian testing back-ported, which is a bit of a manual process. I don't have any issues, especially bluetooth works better than pulse..

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            • #56
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Wayland by default with Ubuntu will put more pressure to Mate to move their Wayland support plan forwards a bit faster.
              No it won't. MATE has very few active developers now, and none of them are interested in that sort of workload.

              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Canonical has killed off Ubuntu flavours in the past for not being able to keep up.
              Nice implication, but no. There's no urgency at all for MATE to move off X. You just blindly raced to champion something which - although undoubtedly the future - is STILL an unfinished mess, and still nowhere near good enough, or even CAPABLE of, plenty of scenarios that work fine under X.
              The migration IS still part of the plan, sure, but it's nothing like as urgent as you seem to want to pretend it is.

              X isn't dead until the last "important" X app fades to black. More realistically, X isn't dead until the XWayland devs decide they can't be bothered to support it any more. Though, yeah, given the IBMHat involvement in the project, maybe that WILL only be a couple of years from now...

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              • #57
                Originally posted by arQon View Post
                No it won't. MATE has very few active developers now, and none of them are interested in that sort of workload.
                That going to be a problem.
                Originally posted by arQon View Post
                X isn't dead until the last "important" X app fades to black. More realistically, X isn't dead until the XWayland devs decide they can't be bothered to support it any more. Though, yeah, given the IBMHat involvement in the project, maybe that WILL only be a couple of years from now...
                This is you failing to understand something. Can I write a application today using X11 that works under XWayland and Xquartz that does not work on X11 bare metal the answer is yes. Due to X11 bare metal not having maintainer its not taking in new feature patches. So yes the last X11 application when it fades out is most likely an application that will not work with bare metal X11.

                The split between XWayland and X11 bare metal will get greater as more versions of XWayland release. The gap in differences between XWayland and Bare metal X11 are not closing in fact its getting larger.

                Just because X11 protocol will still be around does not mean the applications will be compatible with X11 bare metal any more.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by arQon View Post
                  You just blindly raced to champion something which - although undoubtedly the future - is STILL an unfinished mess, and still nowhere near good enough, or even CAPABLE of, plenty of scenarios that work fine under X.
                  X doesn't properly support for mixed DPI scaling, mixed refresh rates, fractional scaling, a tear-free experience, or any sort of security model that prevents apps from snooping on the others, and it never will. It's an unfinished mess that will never be good enough or capable enough for a very common scenario that works well under Wayland. Yet, despite that, it's been in use for 30+ years.

                  Saying that stuff like X or Wayland or "unfinished" is dumb. They're not games, they'll never be done. Their purpose to keep up or ideally be ahead of their needs. X11 hasn't been doing that.

                  Now I'm noticing that much like the people who said that Pipewire isn't ready, you didn't list any real ways that Wayland isn't ready to replace Wayland. Do that.

                  Originally posted by arQon View Post
                  X isn't dead until the last "important" X app fades to black. More realistically, X isn't dead until the XWayland devs decide they can't be bothered to support it any more. Though, yeah, given the IBMHat involvement in the project, maybe that WILL only be a couple of years from now...
                  It's terms of X being developed any further: it's dead. The existence XWayland doesn't mean that X isn't dead. There will always be older applications, especially games, that only support X11 but, by that metric, DirectX 9 is still alive in Windows. XWayland will be around for alooong time but will be launched less frequently as time goes on.

                  Sure, a lot of applications don't natively support Wayland yet, but they will in the future. They will work in a Wayland environment via XWayland though. If Nvidia already supported DMA-buff and GBM then there might have already been distros that didn't ship with X11 at all.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
                    X doesn't properly support for mixed DPI scaling, mixed refresh rates, fractional scaling, a tear-free experience, or any sort of security model that prevents apps from snooping on the others, and it never will. It's an unfinished mess that will never be good enough or capable enough for a very common scenario that works well under Wayland. Yet, despite that, it's been in use for 30+ years.

                    Saying that stuff like X or Wayland or "unfinished" is dumb. They're not games, they'll never be done. Their purpose to keep up or ideally be ahead of their needs. X11 hasn't been doing that.

                    Now I'm noticing that much like the people who said that Pipewire isn't ready, you didn't list any real ways that Wayland isn't ready to replace Wayland. Do that.



                    It's terms of X being developed any further: it's dead. The existence XWayland doesn't mean that X isn't dead. There will always be older applications, especially games, that only support X11 but, by that metric, DirectX 9 is still alive in Windows. XWayland will be around for alooong time but will be launched less frequently as time goes on.

                    Sure, a lot of applications don't natively support Wayland yet, but they will in the future. They will work in a Wayland environment via XWayland though. If Nvidia already supported DMA-buff and GBM then there might have already been distros that didn't ship with X11 at all.
                    I hope the transition happens soon as possible in order to avoid Wayland becomes obsolete before that the transition will be completed.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Azrael5 View Post
                      I hope the transition happens soon as possible in order to avoid Wayland becomes obsolete before that the transition will be completed.
                      Wayland isn't in danger of becoming obsolete any time soon. It's expandable.

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