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Originally posted by skeevy420
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..and now 2021 still people believe in this....so much about CoC, Diversity funds, etc are not necessary. -
Exactly. I remember a friend of mine finding his great grandfather's history book from 1904 (for Belgian schools of then) when emptying his house after his death. And it clearly stated in there that black people were "inferior" or "less intelligent". I was totally shocked that it was taught that way wtih an official stamp. Even if it was considered normal back then.Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
I hate movements such as Black Lives Matter as i don't think they're the right way to raise awareness. But it doesn't mean I agree with the drivel I'm reading here either.
Still, I don't agree with the banning, banning people is somehow saying that you own the single version of the truth and adverse opinions are wrong without letting them the possibility to debate, hence self-fulfilling which is the only acceptable version of the truth. But all of these are views of the mind, this is not a Manichean world arbitrarily decided by the loudests who get to deem something tolerable or something not, everyone is entitled to their own view, even if you strongly disagree with it sometimes.
I'm calling that reaction as being intolerant in accepting someone else's view, whatever it is. I'm tired of that political correctness of having to express views that fit a single version of the truth decided by some (the loudest, and often minorities), not by all. I don't agree with Qaridarium or 60Hz at all, but who am I to say they're wrong and I'm right? Banning them means we are impeding people to express a view that is different from our own, hence impeding people from free will and they can only say stuff if they say it within those arbitrarily decided limits. The snake biting his own tail forever. How come they (and it might be me tomorrow on a different topic) are not allowed free will anymore?Last edited by Mez'; 19 April 2021, 11:07 AM.Comment
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Good to see that despite the very heavy handed push towards well meaning, but ultimately non-productive diversity programs like outreachy, their popularity is subsiding. When the core issue is that the groups they're trying to attract, on average, simply aren't interested in tech sector work in general, results will inevitably be marginal regardless of how heavily you invest in them. It kind of reminds of the saying about how the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
The results from outreachy and similar projects have been abundantly clear for years already; We know that they simply do not work and that are either in need of a complete from-the-ground up re-think or just concluding that the goals were always unfeasible to begin with.
However too many people have basically invested their careers and/or political platforms to ever admit anything of the sort. They'll instead keep beating this thoroughly dead (figurative) horse til it's a (figurative) bunch of red paste spread all over the floor.Comment
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Well there is a saying: my freedom ends where yours begin. When one considers that this is respected by both sides - it can be seen a rather good principle.
Yes, freedom of speech and thoughts - I totally support that.
But opinion is not the same as fact. Eugenics back in in 19th century was matter of scientifical discussion.
Proofs of the white supremacy where sloppy done - such that we 100 Years later can clearly say that it is factual wrong that blacks or which group of colour so ever are less intelligent then whites or whites are superior in general. Unfortunately the "science" of that century is still used to back racist claims today.
If someone is still stating this today. it may be his opinion but considering that he is argueing against facts implies that he is ignoring the proven facts and defames another person/group by his opinion. Which then is an insult and not an opinion anymore.
Violating the freedom principle. There is no right to insult another person.
That's nowadys something I hate - the term freedom of speech is used to cover insults.
No there is no freedom of insults period.
Btw this is the reason why all this diversity stuff comes up - because people don't know anymore what facts, opinions and instults are - everything is an opinion and should be protected by "freedom of speech".
Person X is dogshit - insult
Raspberry icecream is dogshit - opinion
dog feces are dogshit - fact
...sorry for the language.Last edited by CochainComplex; 19 April 2021, 11:45 AM.Comment
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I meant Debian is not really a desktop distro. It's too outdated for that. For servers, sure.Originally posted by 144Hz View PostComment
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Yes, you're right. I totally agree with that.Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
Personally, I wasn't talking about facts that can be disproved. I was just talking about opinions.
Everyone has a right to their opinions. Now if they back these opinions with unproven or false facts or insults, it is an entirely different thing indeed.Comment
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people having their own opinions allows people to be an individual. allowing people to engage in their own self thought means people will disagree. a lot of people just want to live in an echo chamber. no diversity. its #CURRENTYEAR, having an opinion that strays from the person in the room with the speakerphone that considers itself mainstream is bad. you threaten their dominance over opinions by casting doubt with having your own opinion. or worse, you get the ones that scream "letting people have opinions is how you get hitler!." it just never stops. you really have to be careful what you say these days. we are going back to the middle ages in the name of progress and inclusion. people just can't tolerate things they don't like anymore.Originally posted by Mez' View Post
i like to joke the christian right was never defeated. it just dropped religion, switched sides and reasoning, and kept the same outcome.
if phoronix really cares about wanting to keep their content "neutral" then the best thing to do would not post political news or anything controversial. like this very debian news. knowing this lady from india wanted to be the new project leader just because she's a women and accusing debian, an open source project that is open to all, doesn't care who or what you are, you can be a green alien from the planet klendathu that has fifty sex's and gender's for all they care, of not doing "enough" to bring in "diversity" to an open, open source project (open source going to such a degree of openness that it allows anonymous contributions) that doesn't discriminate should have been a giant red flag that maybe this one shouldn't be covered on phoronix. or move it to another part of the site that deals solely with just politics and let people duke it out without clogging up the rest of the site.Last edited by fafreeman; 19 April 2021, 11:33 PM.Comment
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Indeed it is a thin line. The paradox In a real democracy you have to allow undemocratic thoughts. But people really underestimate how a well developed, civilized, democratic country can turn in a suppressing dictatorship. You don't know how shocked people in germany are about trump and friends. It is exactly what has happend around 1920 here in germany,Originally posted by fafreeman View Post
When people think of nazi germany they have the picture of a nation mean, evil, satanistic with a long history of cruelty in mind...no in fact germany 1920 was a civilized country with a working democracy. The laws back then where not much differing from them nowadays. it was not more racist then france, uk at that time. jews have been part of society but not as segregated as one would think. yes they were not much liked comparable to hispanics in us today. It was hatespeech, false narative of politicians, drawing an easy populistic picture of the scapegoat jew which lead to the cruel killing machinery 10 -15 years later. The steps have been so small such that they can be accepted easily.
Hitler was elected legally as chancelor. He struggled to get the whole power of the parliament because even at that time there have been safety mechanisms to not give all the power to one person without some restriction. He was able to sneak around by faking that Poland has started a war on germany which was totally untrue. But the "war" convinced the parliament and President von Hindenburg to engage special emergency acts....what happend then is known by everyone.
Its foolish to believe that this can only happen in germany. And it is foolish to believe that Dictatorships are obvious. No they are only obvious in retrospective ..it is really just a thin line between democracy and dictatorship.
Yes any suppression of freedom of speech can lead to undemocratic tendencies..difficult to keep the balance. And if we look at the culture how people of colour and different gender are treated today. It is necessary to give them a lobby but it should not be the main purpose of an IT project.Last edited by CochainComplex; 20 April 2021, 03:33 AM.Comment
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Diversity and inclusion policies are mainly for good optics and progressive messaging. They do work in that way - helping a bit to normalize something socially. Unfortunately, they do not work as a solution to fundamental social issues, which create inequality/unbalanced distribution/etc. of specific local groups (or nations/cultures globally) in the first place. At the end of the day it's entirely up to specific organization/community to implement them or not, and it's their right to do so if they want it.
Personally I'm not against it in general. I think that it's possible to hire both diverse and competent people. However, as in many cases in life some level of common sense and healthy balance must be maintained.
Also PoC in general are not biologically "less smart", it's all about socioeconomics. Some really regressive shit was said in this thread...
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There is more to desktop than just default DE. Graphics drivers, kernel.. Debian is the definition of outdated. Or perhaps my experience with it is outdated. It for sure was the case whenever I tried it in a past.Originally posted by 144Hz View PostComment
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