Devuan 4.0 Alpha Builds Begin For Debian 11 Without Systemd

[andyprough]

it's a morass of ductape scripts

I've reviewed the code and did not see any "ductape" or anything that would cause me to be fearful in the way that you seem to be. It is posix compliant and built for speed, as advertised.

[matsukan]

systemd would nice if goal is not replace everything with their bloatware code. systemd is biggest threat Linux itself than any Freebsd distro can be even be.

[dreich]

It does not create an integrated, tightly coupled environment like systemd does, which is the reason of its success

Yeah very integrated. That's why every (linux) distro uses systemd-boot instead of grub, systemd-homed over static home directories, machinectl su over su/sudo, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd over netplan, NetworkManager, etc.

If anything systemd is more proof of just another failed attempt to provide integration on linux.

[finalzone]

systemd would nice if goal is not replace everything with their bloatware code. systemd is biggest threat Linux itself than any Freebsd distro can be even be.

Systemd is the de-facto standard system manager for the Linux kernel from which majority of components are optional to build depending of the need from distributions. Freebsd already has his own take from launchd and whatever system management.

[jacob]

I've reviewed the code and did not see any "ductape" or anything that would cause me to be fearful in the way that you seem to be. It is posix compliant and built for speed, as advertised.

It has supervising processes per "tree" (because there is no other way to actually reliably tell whether a process tree is running... not that this is reliable in any way, but...). It uses execline. Seriously, execline! How much more ductape do you need? On the other hand, it is not event based, does not provide any form of resource management, doesn't handle timers (cron is NOT good), doesn't handle dependencies etc.

This is to say that for a core OS component such as this, being POSIX compliant is a bug, not a feature. Service and system event management should be closely integrated with the kernel, not be written to the lowest common denominator with workarounds and handwaving solutions that don't really work in ALL cases.

[jacob]

Yeah very integrated. That's why every (linux) distro uses systemd-boot instead of grub, systemd-homed over static home directories, machinectl su over su/sudo, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd over netplan, NetworkManager, etc.

If anything systemd is more proof of just another failed attempt to provide integration on linux.

systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are being used. systemd-homed is too new and not ready yet (it will become much more compelling once we get idmap mounts in mainline kernel). I regret that systemd-boot is not being used more, the position of Ubuntu and several other distros is that they don't want to use it by default because it's UEFI only while grub allows them to offer the same bootloader config across various architectures. As far as systemd-boot goes, that's one area where systemd is currently substandard, I agree. That does not take away its many other advantages, mind you.

[paulocoghi]

I wish GNOME/GTK were at least as hated as they should be. Just like systemd has Devuan, GNOME could have people too who make their things usable

Mate Desktop may be what you are looking for.

[jacob]

[✓] Muh freedom
[✓] Redhat Conspiracy
[✓] IBM Hat
[✓] systemd is bloated
[✓] systemd is not unix'y
[✓] Gnome, GTK and friends bad
[✓] s6 is much better and not just a disgustingly ugly set of ductape scripts on top of grandpa init

To be honest, there is absolutely nothing unexpected in that thread.

You forgot one: systemd bad coz you can't replace it with ${Joe Random's spare time shitty pet project}. That's why I move to FreeBSD where there is no coupling and full Init Freedom - oh wait.

[dreich]

systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are being used.

I'm afraid, systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are not being used and much like the rest of systemd, are buggy and immature without solving the problem. This is an egregiously recurring theme.

systemd-homed is too new and not ready yet

Yeah, about that ...

As far as systemd-boot goes, that's one area where systemd is currently substandard, I agree

... and that. systemd-boot aka bad ol' gummiboot is not too new and yet here we are. Bad design coupled with hacks glued together. Just adding more does not make your system more integrated.

I regret that systemd-boot is not being used more

Why?! You just admitted it is substandard. It's old software that does its job badly.

That does not take away its many other advantages, mind you.

Yeah, like

machinectl su

LOL. Seriously though, there are no advantages if you cannot boot. Android and chromeOS are far more integrated without using systemd and boot reliably on billions of devices.

Disparaging as this may seem, I'm not dumping on systemd. I just see it as another failure towards integration, marred by the ambitions, scope and design decisions of its creators. Their efforts could have provided us with an integrated system, but it never happened.

[jacob]

systemd would nice if goal is not replace everything with their bloatware code. systemd is biggest threat Linux itself than any Freebsd distro can be even be.

Apart from the self-perpetuating meme about systemd being "bloated" (any actual evidence of that?), claims like that miss the point that systemd is not "init" and was never meant to be a mere init replacement. Just read the very first post by Lennart. Systemd has always been meant to be a comprehensive userland environment built from the ground up. It's more analogous to GNU (or to FreeBSD as a whole) than to init. The service manager was just the first component they released; the stated goal was PRECISELY to replace everything even before the first line of code was written. So bashing it because it puts everything "into init" is about as intelligent as bashing the FSF because they supposedly put a Lisp-based text editor, coreutils and a full-featured shell into a C compiler.