Devuan 4.0 Alpha Builds Begin For Debian 11 Without Systemd

[nado]

[✓] Muh freedom
[✓] Redhat Conspiracy
[✓] IBM Hat
[✓] systemd is bloated
[✓] systemd is not unix'y
[✓] Gnome, GTK and friends bad
[✓] s6 is much better and not just a disgustingly ugly set of ductape scripts on top of grandpa init

To be honest, there is absolutely nothing unexpected in that thread.

the people who hate on Red Hat and IBM love to complain and not do anything about it. GNOME at least have the balls to change the way desktops are designed, change is not easy and we must keep moving forward. GNOME has never been better if you ask me, just look at how much it has inproved the last 4-5 years. KDE is no doubt powerful, but is simply for a very different kind of user. GNOME has sane defaults and KDE has as many options and menus as a Samsung phone. different folks, different strokes. systemd works fine too imo, but of course there is always room for improvement and change. oh i better be careful or I will be called an IBM Hat apologist fascist

[a7v-user]

For instance Debian Stable/Testing has this annoying issue with redshift-gtk that runs twice while Devuan doesn't, it depends by systemd running the instance twice.

The systemd service file for Redshift/Redshift-GTK has "Restart=Always" which means it's impossible by any means to shut down the first instance, or any instance of redshift. Systemd will just restart every redshift process again. It really should be "Restart=on-failure" instead.

Place a file in /etc/systemd/user/redshift-gtk.service.d/override.conf with:

[Service]
Restart=on-failure

[skeevy420]

the people who hate on Red Hat and IBM love to complain and not do anything about it. GNOME at least have the balls to change the way desktops are designed, change is not easy and we must keep moving forward. GNOME has never been better if you ask me, just look at how much it has inproved the last 4-5 years. KDE is no doubt powerful, but is simply for a very different kind of user. GNOME has sane defaults and KDE has as many options and menus as a Samsung phone. different folks, different strokes. systemd works fine too imo, but of course there is always room for improvement and change. oh i better be careful or I will be called an IBM Hat apologist fascist

FWIW, I actually use and enjoy a lot of the stuff Red Hat and IBM bring to Linux. I like systemd and think the pros outweigh the cons. Still, though, I'd be a fool not to see the continuing trend where it seems like everyone follows their lead. I can like some of their stuff and still worry about that trend -- I lived through the 90s and Microsoft being blindly adopted and followed in a similar manner. The end result of that isn't necessarily a good thing.

[nado]

FWIW, I actually use and enjoy a lot of the stuff Red Hat and IBM bring to Linux. I like systemd and think the pros outweigh the cons. Still, though, I'd be a fool not to see the continuing trend where it seems like everyone follows their lead. I can like some of their stuff and still worry about that trend -- I lived through the 90s and Microsoft being blindly adopted and followed in a similar manner. The end result of that isn't necessarily a good thing.

I fully agree with you and I certainly don't like everything Red Hat or IBM do or have done.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority." - John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton

They're serving a very different market though, they're not aiming at the desktop users AFAIK - they're more interested in container tech, cloud, and other enterprise solutions. IBM have been around since 1911, so I don't think they're necessarily the next MS, Google, Amazon or Facebook. If you really want to look at who's dominating the market right now then it would be the big 5, and IBM is not part of them - so with that being said I am much happier that IBM bought Red Hat and not one of the 5. I'm not worried about them gaining to much power. There are other large contributors: Ref: https://news.itsfoss.com/huawei-kernel-contribution/ - I haven't fact checked these numbers, but none of them would surpise me.

These things come and go, and the Linux kernel, software and hardware has so many contributors that I don't think you can judge by direct contributions. The Raspberry Pi kicked off a huge movement and interest for Linux, IoT, and technology projects in general. I'm not trying to imply you don't know all of this already, but put in perspective, IBM and Red Hat may play a big role, but they would be nothing without the rest of them - IMO. Steam, Spotify, Firefox, LibreOffice, Phoronix, Wikipedia.... Ok the last one was a bit off topic, but it's open source in spirit at least.

[F.Ultra]

Completeley and utterly clueless on both these issues, I have no right to say anything negative about these two subjects. Just as i accept systemd has no bugs whatsoever.

You are free to say or write negative things about what ever you like, but as long as those negative things are just made up myths then you should also be prepared to be called out for it.

[aht0]

What a crook. I really don’t understand this non sense around init system freedom. All Devaun is, is a waste of developer resources.

Lol.. and first post in the topic is pro-systemd trolling. Expected nothing less.

[aht0]

the people who hate on Red Hat and IBM love to complain and not do anything about it. GNOME at least have the balls to change the way desktops are designed, change is not easy and we must keep moving forward. GNOME has never been better if you ask me, just look at how much it has inproved the last 4-5 years. KDE is no doubt powerful, but is simply for a very different kind of user. GNOME has sane defaults and KDE has as many options and menus as a Samsung phone. different folks, different strokes. systemd works fine too imo, but of course there is always room for improvement and change. oh i better be careful or I will be called an IBM Hat apologist fascist

And people of who actually DO something about it and go the "other way" will get endless shower of shit from the fanatics of systemd. You just cannot "live and let live". You are like children who would endlessly bully and attack others who are not like you.

[intelfx]

Totally agree, But i fail to see where the myth is in this post?

I'm not a systemd hater, I just dislike it. Systemd is like an Brussels bureaucrat who thinks it knows what's best for my system. When bureaucratd decides i'm not aloud to log back in after a period of inactivity, Drops me to a tty for 2 mins and then reboots! That's a bit too much power for pid#1.
BTW love it or hate it this is a good read https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/

For starters, systemd does not even have any machinery to "decide" what you are describing. You have probably hit a bug (likely not even in systemd).

And that suckless thing is FUD and myths from the first word to the last.

[nado]

And people of who actually DO something about it and go the "other way" will get endless shower of shit from the fanatics of systemd. You just cannot "live and let live". You are like children who would endlessly bully and attack others who are not like you.

On the contrary, it's great that people do and enjoy different things... I just don't see any point in complaining unless it's constructive; IE they are actually developers who are performing the changes they deem necessary.

[F.Ultra]

Totally agree, But i fail to see where the myth is in this post?

That faceless bureaucrats in Brussels dictate what you can and cannot do is just something that Russian troll factories made up to make people vote for Brexit in the UK, reality is that all such laws that govern me as a EU citizen are done by people designated by the national government that I voted for and for which every single member country have veto rights, then those laws have to pass through the EU parliament which consists of people that I voted for in the EU referendum. And last those laws have to be ratified by my national government before they even becomes something that affects me (and not all such EU mandates are ratified as well). So all that speak of bureaucrats dictating from Brussels is 100% hogwash.

Secondly, systemd does not dictate what you do with your computer more than any other piece of software that you use, and most of its behaviour can be controlled though settings. Thirdly I have never experienced any of the problems that you describe (locked out, drops to tty after 2min and then reboots) even though having been running systemd for several years on thousands of servers and hundreds of desktops, now this does not in any way, shape, or form say that you didn't experience this of course, but if you did then it was most likely due to some bug somewhere and not due to "systemd thinks it knows that's best for my system" which was you claim.