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Devuan 4.0 Alpha Builds Begin For Debian 11 Without Systemd

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  • #61
    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    They are used in Arch and Debian, RHEL is considering switching away from NetworkManager for systemd-networkd in RHEL9 (makes sense for a server-oriented OS). Ubuntu and Fedora don't use systemd-networkd because they are desktop OSes and Network Manager is the right one for a desktop, but they still use systemd-resolved.
    Actually Ubuntu also uses systemd-networkd since 20.04LTS, at-least on server installs. They leave Network Manager if you upgrade so it's only used on new installs.

    Originally posted by SilverFox View Post
    I'm not a systemd hater, I just dislike it. Systemd is like an Brussels bureaucrat who thinks it knows what's best for my system. When bureaucratd decides i'm not aloud to log back in after a period of inactivity, Drops me to a tty for 2 mins and then reboots! That's a bit too much power for pid#1.
    BTW love it or hate it this is a good read https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
    So you are clueless on how but systemd and the EU works.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post

      This conflates a lot of unrelated things and it is helpful to start with the understanding that the path chosen by Fedora and Red Hat for RHEL can and is different, in major part because the goals and lifecycle is very different.

      * Btrfs effort in Fedora is largely driven by Facebook because they rely on CentOS stream for their production workflows and integrating better with Fedora is useful for them.

      * Stratis - Red Hat has on the other hand invested heavily into XFS and Stratis is just a userspace tool that integrates a lot of the existing components into a new userspace tool. It is not a new filesystem.

      * systemd-homed is not a filesystem, in Fedora it uses Btrfs and is not integrated into either Fedora or RHEL. It is a purely upstream component.

      * Silverblue uses ostree which is underlying userspace component for among other things, Flatpak and it is not tied to any specific filesystem.

      Unless I'm missing something, it seems like all of that would tie into some Btrfs feature. Definitely OpenZFS, but this is RHEL and Fedora we're talking about so that's a crack pipe dream.

      I never got Stratis and XFS. I get Stratis, just not the XFS part of it. To me, just seems like a bad idea to base something on a non-shrinkable file system. Those can be hell if you have limited resources and are dealing with issues. Literally why I quit using XFS 10 years ago. I ran into one of those situations and had to sit on a broken system until I could afford a new drive. Just seems like most any other FS would have been a better choice.

      systemd-homed is upstream for Fedora and RHEL? Isn't Lennart a RHEL employee? So they only pay the guy, give him an office, and just happen to use his software and call it upstream ? That's one hell of an "upstream"

      Thank you for saying ostree. Had a brainfart yesterday. When using SB I always wondered why it didn't integrate into file systems to leverage their features instead of doing what seems to be the same things on a higher level...like snapshots and subvolumes instead of different ostrees when applicable if that makes sense.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

        Unless I'm missing something, it seems like all of that would tie into some Btrfs feature
        Clearly not since as you are already aware of, Stratis doesn't use Btrfs and Red Hat doesn't have a single Btrfs developer on payroll.

        I never got Stratis and XFS. I get Stratis, just not the XFS part of it. To me, just seems like a bad idea to base something on a non-shrinkable file system. Those can be hell if you have limited resources and are dealing with issues. Literally why I quit using XFS 10 years ago. I ran into one of those situations and had to sit on a broken system until I could afford a new drive. Just seems like most any other FS would have been a better choice.
        Beyond what is supported through LVM thin provisioning, shrinking is just not a feature that enterprise customers want all that much.

        systemd-homed is upstream for Fedora and RHEL? Isn't Lennart a RHEL employee? So they only pay the guy, give him an office, and just happen to use his software and call it upstream ? That's one hell of an "upstream"
        I meant systemd-homed is an upstream systemd feature. It is not used by either Fedora or RHEL yet as I already noted and you seem to be unaware that in many cases, Red Hat just pays the upstream developers and doesn't dictate individual features. Lennart wasn't asked by Red Hat to work on systemd at all in the first place. He happened to do it on his own time while Red Hat was invested into moving forward with upstart originally. It's just not a top down organization.

        Thank you for saying ostree. Had a brainfart yesterday. When using SB I always wondered why it didn't integrate into file systems to leverage their features instead of doing what seems to be the same things on a higher level...like snapshots and subvolumes instead of different ostrees when applicable if that makes sense.
        Because flatpak's goal was to provide something usable on every distribution without depending on a specific filesystem and the model is more like git for operating systems in the sense that it needs to be support branches and deltas and so forth.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
          [✓] Muh freedom
          [✓] Redhat Conspiracy
          [✓] IBM Hat
          [✓] systemd is bloated
          [✓] systemd is not unix'y
          [✓] Gnome, GTK and friends bad
          [✓] s6 is much better and not just a disgustingly ugly set of ductape scripts on top of grandpa init

          To be honest, there is absolutely nothing unexpected in that thread.
          the people who hate on Red Hat and IBM love to complain and not do anything about it. GNOME at least have the balls to change the way desktops are designed, change is not easy and we must keep moving forward. GNOME has never been better if you ask me, just look at how much it has inproved the last 4-5 years. KDE is no doubt powerful, but is simply for a very different kind of user. GNOME has sane defaults and KDE has as many options and menus as a Samsung phone. different folks, different strokes. systemd works fine too imo, but of course there is always room for improvement and change. oh i better be careful or I will be called an IBM Hat apologist fascist
          Last edited by nado; 17 April 2021, 11:00 AM.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

            Actually Ubuntu also uses systemd-networkd since 20.04LTS, at-least on server installs. They leave Network Manager if you upgrade so it's only used on new installs.



            So you are clueless on how but systemd and the EU works.
            Completeley and utterly clueless on both these issues, I have no right to say anything negative about these two subjects. Just as i accept systemd has no bugs whatsoever.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
              For instance Debian Stable/Testing has this annoying issue with redshift-gtk that runs twice while Devuan doesn't, it depends by systemd running the instance twice.
              The systemd service file for Redshift/Redshift-GTK has "Restart=Always" which means it's impossible by any means to shut down the first instance, or any instance of redshift. Systemd will just restart every redshift process again. It really should be "Restart=on-failure" instead.

              Place a file in /etc/systemd/user/redshift-gtk.service.d/override.conf with:
              Code:
              [Service]
              Restart=on-failure

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by nado View Post

                the people who hate on Red Hat and IBM love to complain and not do anything about it. GNOME at least have the balls to change the way desktops are designed, change is not easy and we must keep moving forward. GNOME has never been better if you ask me, just look at how much it has inproved the last 4-5 years. KDE is no doubt powerful, but is simply for a very different kind of user. GNOME has sane defaults and KDE has as many options and menus as a Samsung phone. different folks, different strokes. systemd works fine too imo, but of course there is always room for improvement and change. oh i better be careful or I will be called an IBM Hat apologist fascist
                FWIW, I actually use and enjoy a lot of the stuff Red Hat and IBM bring to Linux. I like systemd and think the pros outweigh the cons. Still, though, I'd be a fool not to see the continuing trend where it seems like everyone follows their lead. I can like some of their stuff and still worry about that trend -- I lived through the 90s and Microsoft being blindly adopted and followed in a similar manner. The end result of that isn't necessarily a good thing.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                  FWIW, I actually use and enjoy a lot of the stuff Red Hat and IBM bring to Linux. I like systemd and think the pros outweigh the cons. Still, though, I'd be a fool not to see the continuing trend where it seems like everyone follows their lead. I can like some of their stuff and still worry about that trend -- I lived through the 90s and Microsoft being blindly adopted and followed in a similar manner. The end result of that isn't necessarily a good thing.
                  I fully agree with you and I certainly don't like everything Red Hat or IBM do or have done.

                  "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority." - John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton

                  They're serving a very different market though, they're not aiming at the desktop users AFAIK - they're more interested in container tech, cloud, and other enterprise solutions. IBM have been around since 1911, so I don't think they're necessarily the next MS, Google, Amazon or Facebook. If you really want to look at who's dominating the market right now then it would be the big 5, and IBM is not part of them - so with that being said I am much happier that IBM bought Red Hat and not one of the 5. I'm not worried about them gaining to much power. There are other large contributors: Ref: https://news.itsfoss.com/huawei-kernel-contribution/ - I haven't fact checked these numbers, but none of them would surpise me.

                  These things come and go, and the Linux kernel, software and hardware has so many contributors that I don't think you can judge by direct contributions. The Raspberry Pi kicked off a huge movement and interest for Linux, IoT, and technology projects in general. I'm not trying to imply you don't know all of this already, but put in perspective, IBM and Red Hat may play a big role, but they would be nothing without the rest of them - IMO. Steam, Spotify, Firefox, LibreOffice, Phoronix, Wikipedia.... Ok the last one was a bit off topic, but it's open source in spirit at least.
                  Last edited by nado; 17 April 2021, 12:09 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by SilverFox View Post

                    Completeley and utterly clueless on both these issues, I have no right to say anything negative about these two subjects. Just as i accept systemd has no bugs whatsoever.
                    You are free to say or write negative things about what ever you like, but as long as those negative things are just made up myths then you should also be prepared to be called out for it.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

                      You are free to say or write negative things about what ever you like, but as long as those negative things are just made up myths then you should also be prepared to be called out for it.
                      Totally agree, But i fail to see where the myth is in this post?
                      I'm not a systemd hater, I just dislike it. Systemd is like an Brussels bureaucrat who thinks it knows what's best for my system. When bureaucratd decides i'm not aloud to log back in after a period of inactivity, Drops me to a tty for 2 mins and then reboots! That's a bit too much power for pid#1.
                      BTW love it or hate it this is a good read https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/

                      Comment

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