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Devuan 4.0 Alpha Builds Begin For Debian 11 Without Systemd

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  • #51
    Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
    The Debian project literally only switched to systemd bc the GNOME guys said that they will depend on it. It was not a conspiracy, but a public threat and blackmail.
    Windows doesn't have systemd and GNOME does not run there, so GNOME is also threatening and blackmailing Microsoft, right? GIMP depends on GTK so by your logic it's an obvious blackmail towards Qt. And since the GObject infrastructure is written in C, I presume that's blatant threat and blackmail of C++.

    There is no more threat or blackmail than there is any conspiracy. GNOME depends on systemd because, tadaaaa, systemd provides useful features that GNOME don't want to have to reinvent. It's not their job to accommodate everyone's personal whims. The same goes for Debian: they adopted systemd because it's useful and because among other benefits it brought them better compatibility with Red Hat. If you want GNOME but don't want to install its dependencies because reasons, you have three options:

    1 - fork it and modify it (e.g. reimplement session management and other features provided by systemd); or
    2 - pay someone to do it for you; or
    3 - stop whining.

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    • #52
      God bless the developers and others like this who are continually pushing against Operation Orchestra.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by jacob View Post
        The same goes for Debian: they adopted systemd because it's useful and because among other benefits it brought them better compatibility with Red Hat.
        Nope, GNOME just decided to depend on systemd on PID 1, threatening and blackmailing everyone without the slightest addition to anything, or without the slightest benefits.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
          Nope, GNOME just decided to depend on systemd on PID 1, threatening and blackmailing everyone without the slightest addition to anything, or without the slightest benefits.
          And they also fly around in black helicopters spreading chemtrails.

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          • #55
            People who glee when thinking about systemd will be replaced by something else in the future and think current 'pro-systemd' people will 'wail and gnash their teeth' really miss the point. Systemd brought, for me, consistency in the boot process for Linux. Play with your Devuan and all the other 'best' things. But at my work I only encounter systemd enabled systems. In the past, I had to look up Ubuntu, Debian or OpenSuse syntax to change things. But now it is all the same. That is the win of systemd and this not going away anymore. Systemd may disappear, but the uniformity will stay. That is the point!
            Just like I pulseaudio will go away and pipewire will be its replacement. Who cares.

            Really... The people who are in 'war' with systemd, get a life...

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            • #56
              Originally posted by BlueCrayon View Post

              Oh no! People using their time how they see fit! We can't have any of that! Into the gulag with them!
              I think it was a sarcastic comment, since without "init system freedom" Systemd likely wouldn't exist either.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by markus40 View Post
                People who glee when thinking about systemd will be replaced by something else in the future and think current 'pro-systemd' people will 'wail and gnash their teeth' really miss the point. Systemd brought, for me, consistency in the boot process for Linux. Play with your Devuan and all the other 'best' things. But at my work I only encounter systemd enabled systems. In the past, I had to look up Ubuntu, Debian or OpenSuse syntax to change things. But now it is all the same. That is the win of systemd and this not going away anymore. Systemd may disappear, but the uniformity will stay. That is the point!
                Just like I pulseaudio will go away and pipewire will be its replacement. Who cares.

                Really... The people who are in 'war' with systemd, get a life...
                Systemd will be replaced by something else in the future because that's called evolution. It's only the *nix neckbeards who live with the firm held belief that use cases, user expectations and requirements have not changed a bit since 1972 and that a teletype emulator is forever the last word in UI design.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
                  The Debian project literally only switched to systemd bc the GNOME guys said that they will depend on it. It was not a conspiracy, but a public threat and blackmail.
                  Sure, it's all the fault of GNOME and not the result of an open discussion that lasted about 5 mouths during which the debian technical committee discussed the matter...

                  Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
                  Nope, GNOME just decided to depend on systemd on PID 1, threatening and blackmailing everyone without the slightest addition to anything, or without the slightest benefits.
                  The fact that you are talking about PID1 only shows that you don't know anything about the topic. Back in 2014 when debian switched to systemd, the only required systemd component required by GNOME was logind, GNOME itself never required systemd PID1 (and I'm pretty sure it still doesn't even if I'm not spending time to confirm this).
                  Last edited by Bigon; 17 April 2021, 06:13 AM.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Siuoq View Post
                    Nope, GNOME just decided to depend on systemd on PID 1, threatening and blackmailing everyone without the slightest addition to anything, or without the slightest benefits.
                    No they do not. You can launch Gnome on any PID 1, you just need a replacement for logind, like elogind.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by dragon321 View Post

                      How is that GTK responsibility? The fact GNOME developers don't care about consistency with other toolkits is not related to GTK. Yes, GNOME developers don't seem to care about consistency with other toolkits but community do. There is Adwaita for Qt. There are many themes that works on both GTK and Qt. Why would you limit yourself to the things created by GNOME developers?

                      Because their developers decided to use CSD. Again why would you blame GTK for that? As I said there is no requirement in GTK to make your application look like GNOME application. You can still design your application in traditional way (that's what MATE and Cinnamon are doing) and totally ignore GNOME HIG. GTK even supports KDE server side decoration on Wayland despite the fact GNOME Wayland has no SSD support at all. Also libadwaita was created to avoid putting GNOME-centric things directly in GTK. So how GTK "don't want to play ball with others on"?

                      Are we talking about GTK or GNOME here?
                      Both. There's enough overlap in regards to their design trends and developers working on them that they come off as one and the same; especially if you're a casual.

                      It's their responsibility up to a point. Much like KDE and Qt have tried to cater to GTK and GNOME, GNOME and GTK have to try to cater to others. That's why in KDE you can change one theme and both Qt and GTK programs will be themed. Best with GNOME is flipping on Dark Mode. KDE also comes with a built-in tool that brings in themes from all sorts of developers, not just themes from the KDE devs (it's hit and miss if we're being honest, but it's there by default). On GNOME I have to know about the right packages to install, the right web site, install web browser plugins, and then install themes and stuff (and like KDE: it's hit and miss if we're being honest). So to answer the question of "Why would you limit yourself to the things created by GNOME developers?": Because that's how GNOME developers want it done. They don't include the tools to tweak it.

                      Why blame them for CSD? Because people have tried to bring up SSD work in the past and upstream never accepts. Libadwaita is also a very recent thing that I am very excited for and was created to address a lot of the complaints I'm raising. While yes it does exist, it hasn't been around long enough to matter in a significant manner. Perhaps in a year's time that'll be more of an argument one way or the other -- we just have to wait and see what all happens. But that exists because enough people have had the same complaints that I'm having. Hopefully it will revert the G in GTK from GNOME back to GIMP. Would be cool if libadwaita spearheaded GTK4 to pick up things like libwindows, libqt, libefl, and other things where a properly written program could change system UI styles and increase how cross-platform GTK is. Like I said, that's actually something I'm excited for.

                      This is just me and I'm not trying to start something here, but something about MATE and Cinnamon just feels off. It's weird because I like that design style, but just not those environments. I think most of it is because cut my teeth on GNOME2 and the GNOME2 style in GTK3 is just weird to me. It just never has seemed right. I suppose I get nostalgic for the old way I preferred and just have to use something else. Does that make sense?

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