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Devuan 4.0 Alpha Builds Begin For Debian 11 Without Systemd

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  • #31
    Originally posted by jacob View Post
    it's a morass of ductape scripts
    I've reviewed the code and did not see any "ductape" or anything that would cause me to be fearful in the way that you seem to be. It is posix compliant and built for speed, as advertised.

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    • #32
      systemd would nice if goal is not replace everything with their bloatware code. systemd is biggest threat Linux itself than any Freebsd distro can be even be.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jacob View Post
        It does not create an integrated, tightly coupled environment like systemd does, which is the reason of its success
        Yeah very integrated. That's why every (linux) distro uses systemd-boot instead of grub, systemd-homed over static home directories, machinectl su over su/sudo, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd over netplan, NetworkManager, etc.

        If anything systemd is more proof of just another failed attempt to provide integration on linux.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by matsukan View Post
          systemd would nice if goal is not replace everything with their bloatware code. systemd is biggest threat Linux itself than any Freebsd distro can be even be.
          Systemd is the de-facto standard system manager for the Linux kernel from which majority of components are optional to build depending of the need from distributions. Freebsd already has his own take from launchd and whatever system management.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by andyprough View Post

            I've reviewed the code and did not see any "ductape" or anything that would cause me to be fearful in the way that you seem to be. It is posix compliant and built for speed, as advertised.
            It has supervising processes per "tree" (because there is no other way to actually reliably tell whether a process tree is running... not that this is reliable in any way, but...). It uses execline. Seriously, execline! How much more ductape do you need? On the other hand, it is not event based, does not provide any form of resource management, doesn't handle timers (cron is NOT good), doesn't handle dependencies etc.

            This is to say that for a core OS component such as this, being POSIX compliant is a bug, not a feature. Service and system event management should be closely integrated with the kernel, not be written to the lowest common denominator with workarounds and handwaving solutions that don't really work in ALL cases.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by dreich View Post

              Yeah very integrated. That's why every (linux) distro uses systemd-boot instead of grub, systemd-homed over static home directories, machinectl su over su/sudo, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd over netplan, NetworkManager, etc.

              If anything systemd is more proof of just another failed attempt to provide integration on linux.
              systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are being used. systemd-homed is too new and not ready yet (it will become much more compelling once we get idmap mounts in mainline kernel). I regret that systemd-boot is not being used more, the position of Ubuntu and several other distros is that they don't want to use it by default because it's UEFI only while grub allows them to offer the same bootloader config across various architectures. As far as systemd-boot goes, that's one area where systemd is currently substandard, I agree. That does not take away its many other advantages, mind you.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Siuoq View Post

                I wish GNOME/GTK were at least as hated as they should be. Just like systemd has Devuan, GNOME could have people too who make their things usable
                Mate Desktop may be what you are looking for.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
                  [✓] Muh freedom
                  [✓] Redhat Conspiracy
                  [✓] IBM Hat
                  [✓] systemd is bloated
                  [✓] systemd is not unix'y
                  [✓] Gnome, GTK and friends bad
                  [✓] s6 is much better and not just a disgustingly ugly set of ductape scripts on top of grandpa init

                  To be honest, there is absolutely nothing unexpected in that thread.
                  You forgot one: systemd bad coz you can't replace it with ${Joe Random's spare time shitty pet project}. That's why I move to FreeBSD where there is no coupling and full Init Freedom - oh wait.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jacob View Post
                    systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are being used.
                    I'm afraid, systemd-resolved and systemd-networkd are not being used and much like the rest of systemd, are buggy and immature without solving the problem. This is an egregiously recurring theme.

                    Originally posted by jacob View Post
                    systemd-homed is too new and not ready yet
                    Yeah, about that ...

                    Originally posted by jacob View Post
                    As far as systemd-boot goes, that's one area where systemd is currently substandard, I agree
                    ... and that. systemd-boot aka bad ol' gummiboot is not too new and yet here we are. Bad design coupled with hacks glued together. Just adding more does not make your system more integrated.

                    Originally posted by jacob View Post
                    I regret that systemd-boot is not being used more
                    Why?! You just admitted it is substandard. It's old software that does its job badly.

                    Originally posted by jacob View Post
                    That does not take away its many other advantages, mind you.
                    Yeah, like
                    Code:
                    machinectl su
                    LOL. Seriously though, there are no advantages if you cannot boot. Android and chromeOS are far more integrated without using systemd and boot reliably on billions of devices.

                    Disparaging as this may seem, I'm not dumping on systemd. I just see it as another failure towards integration, marred by the ambitions, scope and design decisions of its creators. Their efforts could have provided us with an integrated system, but it never happened.

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                    • #40
                      I'm not a systemd hater, I just dislike it. Systemd is like an Brussels bureaucrat who thinks it knows what's best for my system. When bureaucratd decides i'm not aloud to log back in after a period of inactivity, Drops me to a tty for 2 mins and then reboots! That's a bit too much power for pid#1.
                      BTW love it or hate it this is a good read https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/

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