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Arch Linux Based EndeavourOS Begins Providing ARM Builds

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  • #41
    Originally posted by leipero View Post
    Jumbotron
    Good luck with that.
    Also, it seems like you are suggesting that RISC-V at some point might become CISC and take over x86 proprietary arch. Well sure, something, some day will take over x86, but it will still be CISC, not RISC. Not anytime soon tho.

    I'm not sure why are you attempting to convince others (me) that you are right, you believe so, I do not, and never will, because I'm convinced that CISC is the way and RISC is way too limited, you might be right only under the condition that actual definitions for both concepts change IMO, and tomorrow RISC becomes present day CISC.

    If after all that you took from me that i thought RISC-V might become CISC when I made no mention of RISC-V just shows your reading comprehension is quite poor. Not to mention your comprehension of the ARM / RISC revolution going on right before your very eyes.

    x86 is dying. It's dying because of its CISC nature regardless of how much RISC extensions they try to bung on to it carcass. You can NEVER, EVER take out enough of the CISC in an x86 chip to have a power efficient AND powerful CPU. Period. Full Stop. Intel tried with the Atom and it has been an ABYSMAL failure. So much so Intel got out of the Mobile and Tablet market with their tail dragging behind them.

    Couple this with the end of Moore's Law as we butt right up against Physics and Quantum effects, CISC based x86 chips and their inherit complexity means they will never get to 3nm without gutting what makes them x86....namely CISC. The transistor / size budget of the die is too hard to do. Hence Chiplets with their corresponding Memory Latency issues.

    RISC chips on the other...no problem. Apple Silicon SoCs are shipping right this moment in iPads and later this year iPhones with 5nm SoCs with 2 Big Cores and 4 Little Cores all running simultaneously at running over 2.5 Ghz clock. Along with that there is 128 kb of L1 data cache AND 128 kb of L1 Instruction cache AND 8mb of L2 cache. A 4 core GPU AND a 16 dedicated Neural Processor that can do 11 Trillion Ops / Sec. All of this and more in a 5nm package. Shipping now.

    Poor little Intel can't even bung a Neural Processor on their Xeons and have to instead settle for handing out Matrix Math extensions to their AVX vector registers in their Xeons sometime in 2021 if they are lucky and lately they can't even get out of the 10nm starting gate. Even AMD has gotten to 7nm....albeit TSMC's 7nm is more like Intels' 10nm + or at this point should we be calling Intel's process 10nm ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LOL !!!

    Sorry my uninformed and backward looking friend. x86 is dying. It's legacy. Apple knows this. Microsoft knows this. Google knows this. By the end of this decade you may finally know this too.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
      You said you had a hard time seeing MS follow Apple and making ARM based devices so I replied with a link to a MS based ARM device with a purpose-built SOC & CPU like Apple is doing. That is literally the opposite of offering evidence that supports your assertion.
      No, I said I had a hard time envisioning MS making ARM laptops and forcing current laptop makers to follow (I don't give a fsck about tablets/phones).

      I suppose my anecdotal evidence of "they're not popular" supports your position
      Exactly.

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      • #43
        Jumbotron I don't think there is a need to go there..., you ofc. did mention RISC-V directly as well as indirectly with "European Processor Initiative", hence there is a reason why I do not quote your post, because I'm refering to everything you've said in this thread in context, aside from "saving space" and making it more readable ofc.

        x86 might die, it's really beyond the scope of this conversation, we are speaking here about CISC vs RISC, and no one really argues agains RISC being better (more efficient) for specialized workloads. My point is, that RISC is basically usless for general purpose computing, and will stay like that forever, because the very definition of that concept. Again, unliess, the definition itself changes (but then, obviously..., we are not talking about same concepts).

        As far as I understand, the type of logic used in CPU design plays 0 role for transistor density, if you manage to cramp transistors at 1nm without leakage, you are done, logic used by those transistors is completely irelevant. The only issue you may face is the heat transfer, but again, logic used is irelevant, transistor density is what's relevant, and being RISC or CISC, with the same number of transistors and frequency, you will have exact same issue.

        I might be uninformed, and probably am, but one thing is for sure, I'm not backward looking, when I see the pattern that failed already, and the same conditions for it to fail again (when speaking about general purpose computing), it's kinda simple to conclude what will happen in the future, and you don't really need much more information beyond that, it's core principle you are looking at, not the "surface level" semi-relevant stuff.
        Last edited by leipero; 09-25-2020, 08:01 AM.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by DanL View Post

          No, I said I had a hard time envisioning MS making ARM laptops and forcing current laptop makers to follow (I don't give a fsck about tablets/phones).
          Microsoft IS making ARM laptops and other makers will follow.

          Exactly.
          Using anecdotal evidence as fact, like my position on ARM Windows, is how fake news spreads and how people like Trump become President.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
            Microsoft IS making ARM laptops
            Where? (And don't link me to a tablet with a detachable, sold-separately keyboard. I'm talking about real laptops here..)

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            • #46
              Originally posted by DanL View Post

              Where? (And don't link me to a tablet with a detachable, sold-separately keyboard. I'm talking about real laptops here..)
              They have that and a couple weird ass dual screen things and one of the dual screens functions like a keyboard. One is ARM and the other, I think, is Intel based. FWIW, most "I can has office and emailz" and dumber users will be happier on the tablet with the keyboard dock system.

              From what I can tell, their traditional laptops use a combination of AMD, Intel, and Nvidia products. Nothing ARM outside of the above.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by DanL View Post

                No, I said I had a hard time envisioning MS making ARM laptops and forcing current laptop makers to follow (I don't give a fsck about tablets/phones).



                Exactly.
                And yet the combined number of phones and tablets you don't give a fsck about outnumber the number of desktops and laptops in the world by an order of magnitude. That's a lot of hardware to develop software on. All of which is running ARM SoCs. it's only a matter of time that desktops and laptops will begin to move over to ARM if for nothing else but to consolidate development resources and code bases.

                Oh...look. Apple is ALREADY doing just that. As it always has been and will be forevermore, the rest of the computer industry headed up by Microsoft will follow suit by the end of the decade.

                if you are not already porting every single x86 app you have over to ARM you're already years behind the times. The industry has spoken. Power efficiency, silicon innovation, flexibility in hardware design paradigms, convergence and consolidation of code bases and frameworks. All these things and more are available to hardware and software manufacturers through the ARM ecosystem.

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