Arch Linux Based EndeavourOS Begins Providing ARM Builds

[doomie]

wouldn't MS switching to ARM remove a huge argument for using windows at all? that is, existing software. strange. also is more-powerful server/workstation ARM more efficient than x86? cheaper to develop and license, i'm sure.. maybe it is that much more appropriate for hyper-specialized MCM designs.

[ms178]

[B]"Microsoft has today announced a partnership with Qualcomm under which the company will extend the App Assure with FastTrack testing platform to developers working on developing apps to run well on ARM-based Windows 10.

Thanks for the new infos, but I am not holding my breath. I have seen their presentations from back in the day when they were announcing their partnership with Qualcomm [and other ARM vendors in the background] and they are talking about bringing native apps sooner to the WoA platform for a couple of years now. Let's see what comes out of it, there is not much to see today. If they want to make an impression on me, they need to show me native Office on ARM builds and major game titles.

By the way, I have heard the rumor that Microsoft approached Nvidia first (which wasn't that keen on WoA at that point in time to become their front runner). That tells you that Qualcomm was not their first choice and for a good reason: Qualcomm abandoned their server business very early, but Microsoft needed a vendor which is willing to be more aggressive and had deep pockets to bring WoA to life. But from what I have seen so far both partners did not invest as much as it is needed to succeed. Qualcomm's first chip wasn't even optimized for desktop usage scenarios and was still lacking in single-thread performance that they burried their first attempt with notebooks early on. Also their high-price strategy was doomed as you can't sell such a machine on battery performance alone (you could get Chromebooks for less money for basically the same usage scenarios). But with the new high-power ARM line (with the V), they are now in better shape to get this going from a performance/product strategy standpoint.

Apple on the other hand has methodically ramped up the capabilities of their chip designs and has gone all in now. My gut tells me that they will be more succesful with the transition than Microsoft as the future of their company depends on it now (not so much with Microsoft which is still heavily invested in x86-64). Also Apple's tooling seems to be more advanced, but we will see next year how their play works out.

And I very much hope that they will push the whole PC ecosystem with their move, too. After all I want more choice, also on the ISA-level and breaking up the Windows/Intel-duopoly seems to be long overdue.

[pWe00Iri3e7Z9lHOX2Qx]

I'm one of the people that was using Antergos and then migrated to EndeavourOS. It's a really neat system and a great successor of awesome Antergos.

I've used vanilla Arch, Manjaro, and just played around with EndeavourOS. I like what Endeavour is doing. Nice installer but staying closer to pure Arch. Manjaro makes questionable decisions at times. Even ignoring the kerfuffles around office suites, the talk of removing pacman from default installs, etc., asinine changes like switching existing installs to flicker free boot without a vendor logo or animation spinner bothered me. My laptop usually boots in a few seconds, but after that update it happened to take 45+. I was moving my finger down to hard power cycle it when the boot finally finished. Pushing that out before the bits for vendor logos and animation spinners were ready and giving people a completely black screen during boot was just dumb when their users couldn't even tell anything was happening.

I do think all of the 'easier Arch' distros are missing a huge opportunity though. The installer should support (actually default to) BTRFS installs with snapper and the appropriate pacman/grub hooks to create snapshots at every upgrade that are bootable from grub. This is something openSUSE figured out a long time ago and it's a great feature in Tumbleweed.

[Jumbotron]

Thanks for the new infos, but I am not holding my breath. I have seen their presentations from back in the day when they were announcing their partnership with Qualcomm [and other ARM vendors in the background] and they are talking about bringing native apps sooner to the WoA platform for a couple of years now. Let's see what comes out of it, there is not much to see today. If they want to make an impression on me, they need to show me native Office on ARM builds and major game titles.

By the way, I have heard the rumor that Microsoft approached Nvidia first (which wasn't that keen on WoA at that point in time to become their front runner). That tells you that Qualcomm was not their first choice and for a good reason: Qualcomm abandoned their server business very early, but Microsoft needed a vendor which is willing to be more aggressive and had deep pockets to bring WoA to life. But from what I have seen so far both partners did not invest as much as it is needed to succeed. Qualcomm's first chip wasn't even optimized for desktop usage scenarios and was still lacking in single-thread performance that they burried their first attempt with notebooks early on. Also their high-price strategy was doomed as you can't sell such a machine on battery performance alone (you could get Chromebooks for less money for basically the same usage scenarios). But with the new high-power ARM line (with the V), they are now in better shape to get this going from a performance/product strategy standpoint.

Apple on the other hand has methodically ramped up the capabilities of their chip designs and has gone all in now. My gut tells me that they will be more succesful with the transition than Microsoft as the future of their company depends on it now (not so much with Microsoft which is still heavily invested in x86-64). Also Apple's tooling seems to be more advanced, but we will see next year how their play works out.

And I very much hope that they will push the whole PC ecosystem with their move, too. After all I want more choice, also on the ISA-level and breaking up the Windows/Intel-duopoly seems to be long overdue.

Microsoft doesn't have a choice anymore, even if the didn't have a long standing compunction to copy everything Apple does. Apple has been and forever will be Microsoft's R&D Center at least for Consumer Electronic Devices and OS engineering.

Microsoft has DOUBLE less choice now but to go full tilt boogie into the ARM ecosystem because that is where both Apple AND Google are heading. But even more so is this reason. By the very nature of ARM IP licensing you can build your own in house Silicon team to design the hardware while still using the underlying ARM IP and ISA. This is exactly how Apple blows Qualcomm, Samsung, MediaTek and even Nvidia completely out of the water. All these players are ARM licensees. But only Qualcomm and Apple are seriously into making custom Silicon around the ARM IP. Nvidia made step their game up more...but they are more focused on Servers and not the Consumer. Qualcomm did indeed bow out...(permanently...we'll see)...of the ARM server side of things and focuses more on the Consumer side of ARM things and of course Cell modems for 4/5G.

However...there is NOTHING stopping Microsoft from developing their own in house Silicon design team to partner with Qualcomm to make Microsoft specific and tuned ARM cores for Microsoft branded hardware. Much like Apple. And that's the beauty of ARM over Intel or AMD. Only ARM lets a hardware manufacturer become the owner of their Silicon destiny. There is only so much customization Intel can or will let a hardware manufacturer like Apple or Microsoft do to their CPU designs. You have to follow Intel's or AMD cadence which is slower than ARM, not to mention having to wait on Intel or AMD innovations to core CPU design instead of designing it yourself as is the case with Apple Silicon. Not to mention that you will NEVER....NEVER....NEVER get both CPU horsepower AND power efficiency from a CPU and or SoC that is an x86 design as you can with ARM.

Apple has begun the Age of ARM. The gauntlet is thrown. The world wants Convergence with their devices and they want power sipping tens of hours if not days of battery life devices with A.I. built into the very core of the hardware and the software. You are NOT going to get that with Intel, AMD, x86. Ever. Full Stop. Microsoft and Google have no choice but to follow Apple full bore and began to look at and treat x86 as a legacy and increasingly deprecated computing platform.

[Jumbotron]

wouldn't MS switching to ARM remove a huge argument for using windows at all? that is, existing software. strange. also is more-powerful server/workstation ARM more efficient than x86? cheaper to develop and license, i'm sure.. maybe it is that much more appropriate for hyper-specialized MCM designs.

Of course not. Moving to ARM is a way for Windows to SURVIVE. You can NEVER have full convergence of your hardware devices from IoT, to Wearables, to Phones, to Tablets, to Laptops, to Desktops, etc when you have some devices on x86 and others on ARM. Or for that matter like during the time where you had some companies using x86, ARM AND MIPS across devices. 3 separate Silicon IPs and iSAs all with different Code bases by which to create and maintain apps. Like....Hell No to THAT !!

But now with ARM and Apple, once again as they always do, showing the way forward in at least the Consumer space, Microsoft and Google have a chance to finally show off their potential Convergence capabilities across their respective hardware devices by also adopting ARM across their entire hardware stack. Of course , Microsoft will go slower with this move to ARM than either Google or Apple. Unlike Apple which already has a history of just completely abandoning a Silicon design and ISA if it suits their future needs or Google which has been the largest purveyor of ARM devices in the world since the introduction of Android and now helping to usher in the Age of ARM on ChromeOS devices, Microsoft is still very much welded to x86....the so called Wintel problem. But that is changing. And changing fast. It has to for Microsoft's sake. There will remain a need for "heavy" x86 iron in expensive Windows workstations for Content Creators and for Servers, HPC and Supercomputers. But that need will dwindle as the 2020s continue along with ARM's inevitable march into even those spaces while also carrying along the advantages of power efficiency, customization and hardware flexibility. These traits of the ARM ecosystem allow Hardware manufacturers all they need to produce a bevy of devices to fit every consumer need and price point. Intel and AMD can never...EVER...do that. Why.....because....x86.

[muncrief]

Ahhhh.... you must be less than 30 years old. Apple has been down to just 2% global market share in the past, so 13% and growing is quite the accomplishment. This is why Apple was the FIRST company in the history of mankind to reach not only 1 Trillion dollars in valuation but just recently 2 Trillion dollars.

Since you were not probably not born in 1997 you don't remember that Apple was on the verge of extinction with Michael Dell of Dell computers stating that if he were Steve Jobs he would liquidate the company and give all the money back to shareholders.

And what was the secret sauce of that comeback and particularly Apple's rise to 2 Trillion dollars in valuation? The iPhone and iPad. Running on ARM. Apple's marketshare did NOT deteriorate....it SHOT UP! And now with MacOS and Mac laptop and desktop hardware also converging on ARM Apple will be the THE FIRST computer company in history to achieve FULL CONVERGENCE across their entire software and hardware stack. There is NO WAY that is going to cause Apple's marketshare to deteriorate.

Actually I'm a retired hardware/firmware/software designer in my early 60's Jumbotron , and spent my entire career in the Silicon Valley developing everything from embedded systems to mainframes. I even remember a roommate running home with one of the first floppy disks Apple ever made in a small building just a few miles from where I lived.

This of course was a time when Steve Wozniack was the brilliant technical master of Apple, and Steve Jobs was the volatile but well meaning marketing leader. So I've watched the entire evolution of Apple, from a small feisty startup that wanted to bring computing to the masses, to the gigantic uncaring corporation interested only in financially raping its customers it is today.

The sad truth is that when Mr. Jobs returned, after being previously fired, Apple changed much for the worse, and decided that the only way they were going to make a profit was to charge outrageous prices with unethical profit margins for their products. And Mr. Jobs was able to do that because he was a master of hype and had ejected all sense of ethics.

In fact I've often joked that Mr. Jobs could sell horse manure to a horse rancher, convincing the rancher that the manure he sold was better than that his own horses expelled. With the final coup de grasse being offering to haul off the ranchers own horse manure for free, where it would be re-branded as Apple and sold to the next rancher down the road.

And that's the simple reason Apple makes so much money with such a small market share. And by the way, Apple, like Microsoft, appropriated or stole most all of their technology from others. The mouse was designed by Stanford Research Institute's Doug Englebart, Apple admitted stealing the iPod from Kane Kramer, the iPhone was nearly identical to the Samsung F700, and the iPad was taken from Roger Fidler after Apple saw prototypes of it.

So the measly climb from 2% to 13% market share over so many decades is paltry progress, and as I said it's the enormous profit margins that have made Apple rich.

And the change from CISC processors to RISC processors, which are inherently less powerful, and ejecting the ability to natively run all existing x86 software, will not serve them well. In fact a paragraph from the link in your OP illustrates just one of the myriads of problems that RISC processors (which are now actually a mix of RISC/CISC), must confront:

"If you are a little confused by the fact that the V1 has significantly more FLOPs per core and rack but the N2 has a bit higher performance per rack, that is good, you are paying attention. What they are saying is that if you have a normal server workloads with integer and FP workloads, N2 will be your best bet for these average, all around workloads. If you are doing heavy math work like FP laden HPC and simulations, V1 will be significantly faster. This best of both worlds approach is why ARM has two server lines, basically you can’t get the best of both worlds with one core."
SemiAccurate, ARM adds two new server cores and a platform, Sep 22, 2020

But of course Apple will carry on, as the legacy of the loyal base Steve Jobs created will not disappear anytime soon. But they will not continue because of originality or inventiveness, they will go forward as always - because they are greedy and unethical.

[DanL]

Why? Microsoft actually makes a PC line with some ARM devices, various Surfaces, and those ARM ones have never been that popular.

I don't understand why you challenge my assertion and then go on to offer a bunch of evidence that supports it.

[Jumbotron]

Actually I'm a retired hardware/firmware/software designer in my early 60's Jumbotron , and spent my entire career in the Silicon Valley developing everything from embedded systems to mainframes. I even remember a roommate running home with one of the first floppy disks Apple ever made in a small building just a few miles from where I lived.

This of course was a time when Steve Wozniack was the brilliant technical master of Apple, and Steve Jobs was the volatile but well meaning marketing leader. So I've watched the entire evolution of Apple, from a small feisty startup that wanted to bring computing to the masses, to the gigantic uncaring corporation interested only in financially raping its customers it is today.

The sad truth is that when Mr. Jobs returned, after being previously fired, Apple changed much for the worse, and decided that the only way they were going to make a profit was to charge outrageous prices with unethical profit margins for their products. And Mr. Jobs was able to do that because he was a master of hype and had ejected all sense of ethics.

In fact I've often joked that Mr. Jobs could sell horse manure to a horse rancher, convincing the rancher that the manure he sold was better than that his own horses expelled. With the final coup de grasse being offering to haul off the ranchers own horse manure for free, where it would be re-branded as Apple and sold to the next rancher down the road.

And that's the simple reason Apple makes so much money with such a small market share. And by the way, Apple, like Microsoft, appropriated or stole most all of their technology from others. The mouse was designed by Stanford Research Institute's Doug Englebart, Apple admitted stealing the iPod from Kane Kramer, the iPhone was nearly identical to the Samsung F700, and the iPad was taken from Roger Fidler after Apple saw prototypes of it.

So the measly climb from 2% to 13% market share over so many decades is paltry progress, and as I said it's the enormous profit margins that have made Apple rich.

And the change from CISC processors to RISC processors, which are inherently less powerful, and ejecting the ability to natively run all existing x86 software, will not serve them well. In fact a paragraph from the link in your OP illustrates just one of the myriads of problems that RISC processors (which are now actually a mix of RISC/CISC), must confront:

"If you are a little confused by the fact that the V1 has significantly more FLOPs per core and rack but the N2 has a bit higher performance per rack, that is good, you are paying attention. What they are saying is that if you have a normal server workloads with integer and FP workloads, N2 will be your best bet for these average, all around workloads. If you are doing heavy math work like FP laden HPC and simulations, V1 will be significantly faster. This best of bo th worlds approach is why ARM has two server lines, basically you can’t get the best of both worlds with one core."
SemiAccurate, ARM adds two new server cores and a platform, Sep 22, 2020

But of course Apple will carry on, as the legacy of the loyal base Steve Jobs created will not disappear anytime soon. But they will not continue because of originality or inventiveness, they will go forward as always - because they are greedy and unethical.

Ahhh...my apologies for mistaking you for a naive to the history of computing hipster instead of an older, disillusioned Boomer. That's ok, I'm a Boomer too albeit a bit younger at pushing 57.

I say disillusioned because of your self stated history in the computing field and of your obvious bad feelings towards Apple. But I'm sorry, to say that Apple doesn't do anything original or inventive is patently bullshit. There ARE NO ORIGINAL IDEAS LEFT IN THE WORLD. Only "original" and "inventive" ways at repackaging. It's been that way for centuries with the written word and with music just to name two examples. And Apple has been THE MOST "original" and "Inventive" of ANY computer and tech company, particularly in the consumer space, at taking someone else's inventive and original idea and marketing to the people. The only difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple copies from straight up legit tech marvels toiling away at companies run by boneheads who don't know the value of what their propeller heads have in the basement, and then Apple perfects said technology and releases it to the public as opposed to just being an obscure document in a patent office for the rest of time. And the WHOLE TIME makes said copied technology ACTUALLY USEFUL to the larger public instead of just for a bunch of Command Line and Terminal geeks.

Mouse and GUI....Xerox Parc and the Xerox Star workstation. MacOS.....good old Unix and a hybrid kernel from Carnegie Mellon. Development language....good ol' C with Smalltalk bunged onto it to come up with an Object Oriented version of C. Nothing original. But original and inventive ways of using pre-existing stuff to elevate the whole. And by doing so the ENTIRE computer industry has followed Apple the whole way. And the #1 Apple Camp follower of all time....Microsoft. Who then DEVOLVES everything Apple does into a pitiful 2nd rate copy of a copy of a copy in the most UNINVENTIVE and UNCREATIVE ways.

Also equally bullshit is to say that Apple is rich only because of enormous profit margin. I could go to Hong Kong and have a 30 ft tall plastic pile of dog shit made for .50 cents and try to sell it for $1,000,000 for a hefty profit margin and still end up on the street homeless with no cash in my hand because i would not be able to sale said 30ft tall pile of plastic dog shit because there would be no consumer demand for such a product. It's the same with Apple. They charge the EXACT price their market and consumers are willing to pay because THERE IS market and consumer demand for their products. That market share has gone up 7000% since Steve Jobs came back AND even DIED. Why? Because decade after decade after decade taken in the totality, Apple products just...work...better. Full Stop. I know. I am entering my 5th decade of using Apple products in some work environment that also use Windows and Linux. I have A/B compared in real life and real time Apple products and computers and software with Microsoft and it's not even close.

And I say this as someone who is NOT a fanboy or a personal user at home of Apple products. That's right. I have NEVER owned not one Apple device starting from the Apple II all the way to today with an iPhone. I am and have been exclusively Linux and Android now for nearly 15 years. But truth is truth. Apple has been and still is the leading Consumer Computer company of all time and is the most innovative and inventive in the sense of taking Geek only tech, unappreciated or unexploited or underexploited by lesser companies and creatively and inventively perfecting it for consumer use.

And if you are looking for a Corporation in our modern day version of American Capitalism that ISN'T greedy or unethical or even downright evil....well....good luck homesteading on Mars. Because there isn't one on this entire planet. ESPECIALLY in Silicon Valley. Once again, though, Apple comes closest to your "utopian" idea of Corporations working for the good of mankind for a fair profit in this sense. Apple is demonstrably better at User Privacy than any other Consumer Tech company. If for that alone....if I WAS to invest in an Apple product...I purchase an Apple product for that very reason. In fact...I probably am when the iPhone 12 comes out. I've had it with Google and Android. Not because they are greedy or unethical like Apple and the rest. But because they are truly EVIL. Like Facebook evil. Their entire tech platform is to spy on me constantly and allow Facebook to do the same. Plus...and this is the WORST offense of all IMHO...they have taken my beloved Linux and have made a shit pile of an Operating System with it in the form of Android. And ChromeOS is nothing but "LFNSA"...Linux for the NSA. And the only convergence Google can do with their Trillions of dollars is to run Android in a container inside ChromeOS. WTF ? With Apple I get privacy, performance, POSIX, UNIX, convergence and a great user experience.

[Cide]

I'm one of the people that was using Antergos and then migrated to EndeavourOS. It's a really neat system and a great successor of awesome Antergos.

Agreed. Moved over to Manjaro temporarily but felt like I was between a rock and a hard place. Too many AUR apps breaking due to dependencies falling out of date with Arch. Been on Endeavour for most of this year so far and couldn't be happier. Smooth, minimal install. Couldn't be happier.

[Paradigm Shifter]

Ooh. I think I'll give this a go; as much as I like Manjaro, it's always nice to have options. My XU4 isn't doing much right now.

Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had AUR builds fail due to Manjaro being out of sync with Arch as a whole. That said, I don't use that many AUR apps.

And each time Apple grew. And Microsoft and the wider computer industry and portable computing industry copied and followed.

It's funny, because Apple have a history of letting others take a risk first, stealing... uh, "reimagining" it, marketing it as new and somehow everyone falls over themselves thinking it's the greatest idea since fire. See: Xerox, tablet PCs, "smart" watches, portable media players, all-in-one PCs...

There ARE NO ORIGINAL IDEAS LEFT IN THE WORLD.

I think it was in an old book somewhere: "There is nothing new under the sun."