Fedora Approves Of Making Nano The Default Terminal Text Editor, Other Features Accepted

[willmore]

Except for a "Minimal Install" (which only installs the "Core" group), nano has pretty much always gotten installed because it is in the "Standard" group (which is used for everything else).

While more experienced users are likely to know at least enough vi to do trivial things (at least to have memorized how to get out), the real advantage will be for the less experienced using (or being forced to use) linux for some specific function and just need something basic to edit one/two configuration files.

Thanks for pointing out that nano is in the standard group. I hadn't realized it was installed here. Fixed that right up. It'll probably reinstall it on the next upgrade, though. Guess I need to put that in the post-install script.

[gbcox]

Does that mean that Fedora 33 is guaranteed to have btrfs by default? Or does that just mean a permission to start working on that feature?

Should be.... maybe...

[starshipeleven]

Thanks for pointing out that nano is in the standard group. I hadn't realized it was installed here. Fixed that right up. It'll probably reinstall it on the next upgrade, though. Guess I need to put that in the post-install script.

even if I hate vi I'm not going out of my way to delete it, I only delete and block stuff of a certain weight and/or performance impact, and brltty because it screws with tty terminals and I'm not blind so I have no use for it.

That said, doesn't Fedora have some form of package blacklist (omg I said the non-inclusive word, I'm totally done)?

OpenSUSE also uses a similar "default packages for release" list and if I don't blacklist stuff (omg I did it again, I'm beyond saving) it gets autoinstalled on every upgrade, which is the default form of update on Tumbleweed.

Yes it seems it does https://www.tecmint.com/yum-lock-dis...pdate-version/

[willmore]

even if I hate vi I'm not going out of my way to delete it, I only delete and block stuff of a certain weight and/or performance impact, and brltty because it screws with tty terminals and I'm not blind so I have no use for it.

That said, doesn't Fedora have some form of package blacklist (omg I said the non-inclusive word, I'm totally done)?

OpenSUSE also uses a similar "default packages for release" list and if I don't blacklist stuff (omg I did it again, I'm beyond saving) it gets autoinstalled on every upgrade, which is the default form of update on Tumbleweed.

Yes it seems it does https://www.tecmint.com/yum-lock-dis...pdate-version/

I don't want it in my system because I don't want it accidentally getting launched when some app wants a text editor, so it's reasonable to remove it. Back in the early 90's, a colleague used EMACS for everything. He made the mistake of setting it as the default editor. EMACS is great if you've bought into it and do everything from *inside* EMACS, but invoking EMACS for *ever little thing* was horribly painful. He wasn't using it from the inside. He set it as his editor because it was "what the cool UNIX people did". It was hilarious to watch him reply to emails. It took a good minute for it to launch for every email and half that to close down.

So, I'm not doing that with nano. It may be what that cool kids use, but I'm going to stick with the editor that's been working fine for 30 years. (with improvements)

[starshipeleven]

I don't want it in my system because I don't want it accidentally getting launched when some app wants a text editor

I'd say that if a command line application isn't able of honoring something as basic as the environment default editor (you set in .bashrc or .profile file https://www.a2hosting.com/kb/develop...ditor-in-linux ) it's better to have more editors, not less. As chances are that if it does not find whatever it had hardcoded as editor will probably fail silently.

It may be what that cool kids use

cool kids use a graphical text editor, nano is for those lucky few that have to use command line to do some stuff against their will (i.e. fix some random configuration file up the bazoo of the /etc folder because the distro lacks a graphical configuration tool like Yast, that also has a ncurses interface for console environments), and they are not Veteran Unix Admins so would really appreciate something that resembles a graphical text editor in its interface.

[bug77]

So, some fun reading August 1984 Unix Review "Interview with Bil Joy": https://begriffs.com/pdf/unix-review-bill-joy.pdf

Ha, the guy predicts Gosling will create the editor to replace vi and the Gosling goes on to do what? :P
Thanks for the reading.

[oiaohm]

For people who use the command line only to administer servers, I would have thought they knew enough Vi/Vim by now to change config files? they don't have to be programming text editor gods but learning 3 key strokes isn't too hard.

Those who are command line administer servers don't always do in day in day out. I am one of those. Like you might spend 2 to 3 months writing reports and proposals to get stuff done in Libreoffice/MS Office so it is very easy to forgot how to use vi. Nano displaying all need operational keys on screen is a good thing. You start vim without any files open and it does give some 2 basic commands yet you directly open a file that is gone. The information vim shows when starting with no document could be placed on screen all time at the cost of 1 line of screen space with space for more.

~VIM - Vi IMproved
~
~ version 8.2.716
~ by Bram Moolenaar et al.
~ Modified by [email protected]
~ Vim is open source and freely distributable
~
~ Help poor children in Uganda!
~ type :help iccf<Enter> for information
~
~ type :q<Enter> to exit
~ type :help<Enter> or <F1> for on-line help
~ type :help version8<Enter> for version info
~
~ Running in Vi compatible mode
~ type :set nocp<Enter> for Vim defaults
~ type :help cp-default<Enter> for info on this

Yes this looks workable until you do :help and hit

'VIM - fake help file for vim-tiny'

instead of real help so you don't have any direction of usage in the application help because the tiny version was installed.

Now you decide to to man vim and you attempt man vimtutor as well only to find no usage instructions.

So now you have a editor with the only included usage instructions is how to quit so people like me take the hint of quit using vi/vim.

At this point when you cannot remember Vi/Vim commands and the system has nano you go use that instead and end up using nano first and vi/vim second because you always get usage instructions with that..

Just look at what is on the nano screen

^G Get Help ^O Write Out ^W Where Is ^K Cut Text ^J Justify ^C Cur Pos M-U Undo M-A Mark Text M-] To Bracket M-Q Previous ^B Back ^◀ Prev Word ^A Home
^X Exit ^R Read File ^\ Replace ^U Paste Text ^T To Spell ^_ Go To Line M-E Redo M-6 Copy Text ^Q Where Was M-W Next ^F Forward ^▶ Next Word ^E End

All your basic editing stuff is on screen so missing help file does not screw you over.

Sorry learning keystrokes to operate vim/vi over and over again is not exactly fun because you have spent too much time between using vim/vi and repicking up vi/vim a lot harder than it should be because strike vim/vi with no usage instructions. Yes the biggest bug bear of vim/vi is the fact that you hit versions with not even basic usage instructions.

https://www.dummies.com/web-design-d...files-with-vi/

Yes doing a simple modification of a file is 7 steps with vi/vim none that you in fact have any documentation on system to perform on systems with vim-tiny. Doing that basic nano has all the information you need on screen and starts the document in insert mode so 5 steps instead of 7. If you are going by key-press count to get the job done nano is less than vim/vi for basic edits so faster if you are use to nano. So for a lot of administration vim/vi is hard to use due to basically having no on-line help at all due to how vim/vi was installed and slower due to requiring more keystrokes. Majority of administration edits are not fancy things just simple change 1 value on X line nano is more than good enough for this.

I have really not understood why vi/vim has been the default editor for administration for a very long time. Vim in fact uses more disc space than nano even with help. vim-tiny the one without help saves you roughly half a meg of storage vs nano but really is saving half a meg of disc space worth it for a item that is a pain in but to use.

Yes I would love to see someone take nano and make a trimmed down version or someone make a sane vim-tiny that does not equal strip user of all useful help information to save space. Yes a editor designed for administration would be designed for simple edits 99% of the time and is aware you will need help because you will not be using it day in day out. Remember with servers if it working you don't fix it in a lot of cases so there can be long times between manual editing and that increases human forgetfulness.

The biggest jackass of vim-tiny is the last section of the help file.

HOW TO OBTAIN HELP

either browse the Vim online help via web starting at

Yes it ends on the word at with no URL. So not only does vim-tiny result in not installing help files its been stripped to the point it does not tell you the URL to get help.

I really don't know how you could make a functional editor any more user unfriendly than vim-tiny installs manage to be. Yes I am sick of people saying remember how to use vim/vi. My big issue is why in hell does vim-tiny result in you need to 1 remember how to use vim 2 in fact need know the URL to access help if you have forgot how because it will not even tell you that.

[RahulSundaram]

Does that mean that Fedora 33 is guaranteed to have btrfs by default? Or does that just mean a permission to start working on that feature?

The latter.

No feature is "guaranteed" to be default. Such features have a contingency plan and it will just to be reverted if there are major problems discovered with it. An accepted feature just means the project is moving forward with the work to integrate it by default during the development phase for the next release

[itoffshore]

I much prefer nano generally - being able to set different colours for $USER & root is useful

although I stil use vim to double check whitespace in files

[L_A_G]

Well that was a long time coming for a very obvious decision. Vim is basically just an example of how not to design user-facing software with probably the most un-intuitive user experience I've ever had the displeasure of using. Not that nano isn't a little feature-poor for certain uses or emacs isn't a textbook case of feature creep, but every time I've had to use Vim it's been like pulling teeth.