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Fedora Developers Restart Talk Over Using Nano As The Default Text Editor

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  • lsatenstein
    replied
    On reboot System "first time" setup can ask user to choose which of the two to set as default. The ISO could include both vi(m) and nano.

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  • vegabook
    replied
    Originally posted by Terrablit View Post

    Glad to see that when I called you out for "elitist patronizing bullshit", you decided to double-down on that instead of backpedaling and trying to be reasonable. Thanks for confirming that your niche opinion is worthless to anyone but yourself and your pompous posse of perpetually wheezing neckbeards. I'm sure you've already made a CCG consisting of your favorite linux tools and mountain dew flavors.

    The mere idea that not wanting to use vi implies corporateness or incompetence is dogmatic trash. Plenty of linux users hate vi. Like everyone that uses emacs. Or people who don't really appreciate modeless editors. I've been using linux for several decades and I loathe it. And I hate visudo for making me use it.

    If we want the "year of the linux desktop" to ever be anything more than a meme, we have to accept that cobbling together a shitty distro based on the premise of making the user do everything themselves using the distro manager's tools is egocentric and counterproductive. Simple, sane defaults are key. Let the power users fuck shit up all they want.
    You're far too angry dude. It's a joke! I hated VI too when I started, now I love it. But I don't go all nuts on people just 'cos they don't like vim. I understand! It's a 70s paradigm keyboard weird keystrokes no help yada yada. But understanding's gotta go both ways. Peace.
    Last edited by vegabook; 06-30-2020, 02:35 AM.

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  • Terrablit
    replied
    Originally posted by vegabook View Post

    Nano?? Pah! Far too complicated for the hordes of corporate drones who suddenly want to use the Linux shell.

    no no no no no this is 2020! We need to make things eeezzyy:



    There fixed it for you
    Glad to see that when I called you out for "elitist patronizing bullshit", you decided to double-down on that instead of backpedaling and trying to be reasonable. Thanks for confirming that your niche opinion is worthless to anyone but yourself and your pompous posse of perpetually wheezing neckbeards. I'm sure you've already made a CCG consisting of your favorite linux tools and mountain dew flavors.

    The mere idea that not wanting to use vi implies corporateness or incompetence is dogmatic trash. Plenty of linux users hate vi. Like everyone that uses emacs. Or people who don't really appreciate modeless editors. I've been using linux for several decades and I loathe it. And I hate visudo for making me use it.

    If we want the "year of the linux desktop" to ever be anything more than a meme, we have to accept that cobbling together a shitty distro based on the premise of making the user do everything themselves using the distro manager's tools is egocentric and counterproductive. Simple, sane defaults are key. Let the power users fuck shit up all they want.

    Leave a comment:


  • vsteel
    replied
    Originally posted by JustinTurdeau View Post

    I'm not saying new users should seek to emulate neckbeards or make life hard for themselves, I'm saying that claiming these people are "stuck in the past" or somehow dysfunctional is the exact same lack of understanding that you're accusing me of, just in reverse.
    It isn't about all thinking the same, it is about not erecting or keeping artificial roadblocks. This is just like people screaming back in the day about having pre-compiled kernels. If you didn't compile it yourself you didn't deserve it. If you didn't build your internet stack from source you didn't deserve to be on the internet. AOL caused quite a ruckus because people could just load a floppy disk into a machine and get on the internet, it made a lot of people furious and for a while some sites banned people with .aol after their email.

    These are the same type of arguments that have been going on for decades. People that had to learn the hard method don't like how people that come later have it easier and feel there needs to be a rite of passage.

    Just for the record I have been helping the open source community since the late 80s and I have been giving those with the elitist attitude grief for decades.

    I guess looking back you are right, I want people to think the same. I want people to have a growth mindset and not get stuck in the "Because we have always done it that way." or the "If you didn't go through the pain I did then you shouldn't have it." thinking. I want everyone to embrace continual improvement and leave behind "All change is bad.".

    Leave a comment:


  • JustinTurdeau
    replied
    Originally posted by vsteel View Post
    You are also missing the point that you need to look in the mirror and look at your neck beard and realize that not everyone wants one because you have one. A little self evaluation would go a long way to reaching out to new users and understand they don't all have the same background as you and we should be an open and inviting community that helps each other.
    I'm not saying new users should seek to emulate neckbeards or make life hard for themselves, I'm saying that claiming these people are "stuck in the past" or somehow dysfunctional is the exact same lack of understanding that you're accusing me of, just in reverse.

    I was simply replying to a specific point you made. I'm not taking up the role of New User Ambassador just because you think everyone else should care about the same things as you. I already do my part in the form of 10+ years of open source contributions. If you care about making things easier for new users then roll up your sleeves and actually do something, instead of just taking the moral high ground and telling everyone else what to think or how to contribute.
    Last edited by JustinTurdeau; 06-27-2020, 04:17 AM.

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  • lucrus
    replied
    Originally posted by AdamW View Post

    nano is not perfect, but you're at least *more likely* to figure out what ^O and ^X mean (after a few tries) than you are to figure out absolutely no help at all, which is what vi's default view gives you.

    Also, nano's default view *tells you that you are in an application called nano*, which makes it much easier to look up help if you need it. vi's view does not even tell you you are in an application called vi, which presents you with a fun initial hurdle to finding out what the hell to do next.
    I agree, but my point is quite different: both nano and vim lead a newbie to read some kind of documentation in order to use them. Yes, for nano it is easier to find, it is shorter and easier to understand, but a newbie that opens up the terminal and types something that in turn fires up the default editor is a newbie who has already tried the basic commands like ls, cd, mv and now is exploring "git commit" or something like that. He's no fear of learning something new, and vim is something way more interesting and powerful than nano.

    That said, I'm contributing to the time waste I cited in my first post, so I give up here. I think the Debian way in this case is a smarter solution (alternatives system).

    Leave a comment:


  • AdamW
    replied
    Originally posted by lucrus View Post

    Agreed.



    Agreed too, but what is a "better terminal experience" for a techie who is curious to learn a new system?

    In my first years of Linux terminal I've been struggling with Jed and nano: both are text editors that try to be more user friendly than vim, but both do have their own learning curve and none is as intuitive as a mouse pointer and a toolbar with icons, which is not possible in the terminal.

    For example exiting nano is not more intuitive than vim for a newbie, because newbies do not know that "^X" means Ctrl + X, and they will likely try to type the ^ character followed by uppercase X or something. So, in the end, a techie newbie will have to resort to some documentation regardless of what editor is the default.

    When I finally decided to grasp the nettle and learn vim basics, I regretted I hadn't done that earlier.
    nano is not perfect, but you're at least *more likely* to figure out what ^O and ^X mean (after a few tries) than you are to figure out absolutely no help at all, which is what vi's default view gives you.

    Also, nano's default view *tells you that you are in an application called nano*, which makes it much easier to look up help if you need it. vi's view does not even tell you you are in an application called vi, which presents you with a fun initial hurdle to finding out what the hell to do next.

    Leave a comment:


  • AdamW
    replied
    Originally posted by cesarb View Post
    I always remove nano from every machine I administer, and have done so for two decades. I don't want to risk its automatic hard line wrapping corrupting configuration files, and having to use "nano -w" every time gets old really fast (not to mention that other programs which call $EDITOR won't add the "-w" for me).
    The seventh and eighth non-blank lines of `man nano` say this:

    Code:
    Since version 4.0, nano by default:
    
    • does not automatically hard-wrap lines that become overlong,

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  • AdamW
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    " Welcome to nano. For basic help, type Ctrl+G." appears when you open it and if you press those keys it will explain what the "^" symbol means.

    On Vi there is no such thing.
    There is, actually. Both nano and vi have fairly useful welcome screens.

    The problem is you only see them when you run just `nano` or just `vi`. You don't see them if the program is opened with a file. Which is the relevant case here; whenever some app needs to open 'the default editor', it passes it a filename.

    So the first time you run `git commit` or `systemctl edit` or `visudo` or any one of several dozen other things that (sometimes unexpectedly) trigger 'the default editor', if the default editor is vi, you are thrown into vi's main interface. Which provides no help at all as to what you're looking at or what to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • AdamW
    replied
    Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

    Ooo, time to think of a compromise solution!

    Here.

    On first launch the EDITOR variable is set to editor-selector or something like that, which allows the user to select their preferred editor, like this:

    Code:
    Please select your default text editor:
    (1) Simple (nano)
    (2) Programmer/Advanced (vim)
    Input number (default 1)?
    After selection, the EDITOR variable will permanently be set to the user's choice.
    Congratulations! You have volunteered to write this, fix all the weird edge case bugs it inevitably contains, and maintain it for all time.

    Leave a comment:

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