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Fedora Developers Restart Talk Over Using Nano As The Default Text Editor

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  • #31
    Originally posted by vegabook View Post
    Why are we trying to make things all easy for people on the command line.
    Why aren't we using a completely brain dead and crap shell like CMD.EXE?

    Bash is easymode, bah.

    You asked for it - you opened a shell. You got the power. Now learn to use it, young apprentice.
    Artificial and arbitrary complexity teaches nothing. Besides VIM there is no other tool that has an interface even remotely like Vi, and quite frankly even VIM has no real reason to exist in a GUI system where you can install better IDEs.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      Why aren't we using a completely brain dead and crap shell like CMD.EXE?

      Artificial and arbitrary complexity teaches nothing. Besides VIM there is no other tool that has an interface even remotely like Vi, and quite frankly even VIM has no real reason to exist in a GUI system where you can install better IDEs.
      Vim's complexity is neither arbitrary nor artificial, a fact that anybody who has worn the initial steep learning curve will attest to.

      Tools have ways of becoming "sticky" and if you learn a rubbish one, you might be stuck using it for years.

      On the point of IDEs, we're hardly discussing IDEs here. This is a discussion about Fedora's default text editor.
      Last edited by vegabook; 06-25-2020, 06:31 PM.

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      • #33
        I don't like either vi or nano, and rarely use either, but I think nano would be much easier for a novice to use, so I favor making it the default.
        Almost everyone who already knows how to use vi wouldn't have too much difficulty in changing whatever settings are needed to use it on their system.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by vegabook View Post
          Vim's complexity is neither arbitrary nor artificial, a fact that anybody who has worn the initial steep learning curve will attest to.
          Yeah. It has flaws, and editors like Kakoune are trying to reinvent it without those flaws, but, fundamentally, arguing that its alienness is worthless is like a GUI user arguing that the complexity of a CLI is worthless.

          See Vim's Big Idea by Mike Kozlowski.

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          • #35
            What a waste of time, just switch to nano as the default (every distro should have nano chosen as the default CLI editor), and don't care what do the accustomed to vi(m) graybeards say.

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            • #36
              I'm using nano for many of my everyday tasks. If I do bigger work I'll open my IDE (mostly IntelliJ these days...). If I need to do remote work via terminal or small changes or comprehend something quickly I'm using nano. I do feel that vi and emacs are relicts of the past: Too bloated and complicated for small tasks, not comfortable and featurerich enough for todays advanced work, so they seem to be bad solutions to both of my needs.

              I think it's quite reasonable to switch the default terminal editor to nano.

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              • #37
                1) vimdiff is still the best 4 window merge tool for git and package update config conficts.

                2) vim-shellcheck should be used for any script editing. (lighter than a full IDE)

                3) nano can handle crontab, but so could gedit. What would a non-n00b possibly need to do on the command line?

                5) why would any non-n00b care what the default was? (Ubuntu crontab or something already asks your preference on first use)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by vegabook View Post
                  Vim's complexity is neither arbitrary nor artificial, a fact that anybody who has worn the initial steep learning curve will attest to.
                  I, too, am vulnerable to Stockholm syndrome. I should probably post about how great the experience is and how dumb everyone else is for not enjoying it with me. And then rub sandpaper on my face and shudder in ecstasy as the pain penetrates deep into my soul. The blood is just a physical manifestation of my enlightenment.

                  Originally posted by vegabook View Post
                  Tools have ways of becoming "sticky" and if you learn a rubbish one, you might be stuck using it for years.
                  Well, then, it's a good thing that the learning curve for nano is almost non-existent. For 90% of cases, they'll only need to know how to save and exit, which is always displayed on-screen. Requiring experts to select and install the editor they actually want (e.g. perpetual vim vs emacs flamewar) seems like a more sensible decision than forcing new users to struggle using a tool that most of them will hate and avoid like the plague (without knowing that they can banish it). Literally the people most likely to struggle with vim are the ones who wouldn't know how to change the editor. Why pointlessly make it more difficult. Plus, if you're so skilled that you vim in your sleep should be using a setup script (or ansible/puppet/chef) anyway and it won't add much work.

                  It's also a good thing that a linux distro install isn't a life-altering decision about the next decade of your software life, and instead is just a package manager with a minimal default selection of packages. This isn't some "teach a man to fish" life lesson we're foisting on people here for their own good. We just want to make it simple for the majority of the user base.

                  Insisting that people use a more difficult tool for simple tasks when a simple one is available (and they're not required to combine tools) is literally elitist patronizing bullshit.

                  Originally posted by vegabook View Post
                  On the point of IDEs, we're hardly discussing IDEs here. This is a discussion about Fedora's default text editor.
                  Yet another good reason to not force users to use an overly complicated tool for basic text editing. People who need more will know it and find it. The default should either be a minimal editor relying on arrow keys and a few (visible) key combinations, or an editor selection tool. Anything else is just catering to somebody's bias and/or ego.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by elatllat View Post
                    5) why would any non-n00b care what the default was? (Ubuntu crontab or something already asks your preference on first use)
                    I think that is the best idea. Just ask the user and specify if not understanding then choose easy for user one. No-brainer. Solved. Fedora devs don't understand this concept or want it. They just want to pick something for all.

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                    • #40
                      The UI of nano is far worse than Turbo Pascal or QBasic
                      No idea why anyone would think it's user friendly.

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